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It makes sense about staying with their mother and/or littermates but, unfortunately, thats not an option for most guys who buy a pup from someone. I can also see how a pup would be less apt to stray when worked with a pile of dogs as opposed to hunting with one old dog but I also don't think they get the same experience with a pile of dogs. What about the times you're roading dogs? Personally, I want to see a pup that has enough drive that they are trying to start tracks. What about the times that the dogs make a big lose on a bad cat track and are working to pick it up and the pup comes across a hot coyote or bear track? Deer and elk seem to be far less of an issue and I've owned several good dogs that just never really had an interest in them and, honestly, I don't care for a young dog that takes a particular liking to them but bear, coon, and especially coyotes seem to catch the interest of pups at some point. In fact, if I have a young dog that only sticks with the old dogs when roading or only follows them out of a lose, I start to get concerned and really keep an eye on the dog to see if it is working or just along for the ride. Are these naturally broke dogs late starters? I mean, do they follow along for quite some time(past a year old) before they start showing that they are contributing to the race or are they contributing at a young age? Again, I'm not talking about good tracks and races but during times when the old dogs are not running like roading or during a lose. At what age and after how many races do they start pushing for the front and taking over the lead and/or picking up loses ahead of the others? How many races do they run with the older dogs before you dump them out at the strike and at what age will they start the track ahead of the older dogs? When I have a pup that is 6-7mths and roading with the dogs, I expect them to be trying to find something to run. I usually just need to say no or beep the horn and they stop but, sometimes, they find something they want to run that the broke dogs don't. Trailing, a lot of times, they stick with the others pretty well but, when they are about a year old and the dogs make a lose, I find that they are trying to contribute and can be sidetracked if they pick up a hot coyote during a lose. I consider it a warning sign because, like I said before, I don't like a dog that switches game but, as young dogs, it does happen from time to time. When I have a young dog that is 10months or older and I drop them at the strike, I want them pushing out and hunting for the track. This is when I find that the biggest temptation comes. They know how to trail and tree from going with the other dogs and they have grown to the point that they want to compete with them for the front. They are excited from the strike and opportunity to run so, when they get down and there is a coyote track, they take it. The broke dogs check it and take the good track but the pup has still started junk and gets zapped at that point. If they are a year old and will only go on tracks that the other dogs have started, I lose interest in that dog because I hunt a small pack and want them contributing from start to finish at that point. Sure, they will screw up but I want to see them working and, with working, comes mistakes and temptation.

I have the same expectations out of year and a half's as I do out of the older ones. I don't have time for a me to dog. I hunt most cases all the dogs free on the deck so when there is a strike all the dogs come off by the time the pup is 10 months old it knows what it is looking for. I was told by an old successfully hunter a dog doesn't learn anything from inside the box. So if I have pups that are 5 or 6 months old there up top and come off looking for the track just watching the pups you can figure out if there tagging along or trying to get it going. Roading I'll road all four of my own and that's primarily just threw the crossings or to warm up or clean out again. Now think about how often is a coyote track with in a 100 yards of a lose probably not often so I don't worry about if a pup gets a pick up they generally been on enough good game I don't have a problem. I think you might run in to problems when your feeding young dogs in rather having them at the start most would say you would probably have bigger problems that way but I don't and know alot of other people who feel the same way. I don't hearing about how a dog started cold trailing at four years old. My best cold trailer ain't two yet.

I hunt in Montana and Idaho all months of the year except November. As a single guy I can do a lot of hunting and hunt a lot. I hunt more often in less than ideal than in ideal conditions. My pups never get any training on drags and I never run coons as I am not anywhere close to any. My pups usually start going on tracks by 4 months old. I can see how you could keep young dogs from trashing if you keep them in controlled situations on good tracks. In my style of hunting on a bad track that takes an hour to move 300 yards I have never seen a young dog not trash if the opportunity presents itself. If that happens a mile off the road by the time you realize you have an issue, the young dog may be out of shocking range and you have a major trash race.

Merlo, you ask how often a coyote track is within 100 yds of a lose and, from what I've seen VERY OFTEN. They are both scavengers and attracted to the same things. Just the other day, I stopped to look at a bobcat track and, within 20yds, there were 4 wolf tracks, two coyote tracks, and a couple deer. What about the times the cat is feeding off of an old road kill, lion kill, etc? There will be every scavenger track around on that kill. The point that I'm trying to make is that every dog makes mistakes and, in the woods, there are so many variables that it is impossible to stay on top of every situation. I am just curious as to what it is that keeps these dogs from trashing if they have a natural desire bred into them to run game. What training techniques are used to overcome the dogs desires and get them to only choose one animal to run especially after a young dog has had a slow day or two because, quite simply, there are times when finding a cat can be tough. Even if a dog is a naturally smart dog that learns quickly and is a dog that is naturally broke, how does one go about getting them through a lifetime in the woods without temptation? How does a person go about breaking a dog from an opportunity that hasn't presented itself, yet? I can see the opportunities being lessened when a person has a dozen dogs on the ground because there is a much better chance for another dog to pick up a lose before the pup picks up "a track" and its also easier for a young dog to stay with a dozen dogs barking around than to stay with a single dog that makes a lose but I also think the pup is not getting as much out of it with a pile of dogs but that is another topic. I can honestly say that I have never seen a dog that has never offered to trash at any point. I know that its not naturally bred into the dogs because I've tried and seen a lot of different strains and breeds. Sure, some seem less likely to trash but all have had the natural desire to chase game and all have made mistakes. I raise my pups in the house and I only recently bought leashes because I needed them for the times when people shoot bears out. My dogs are all voice trained and lead without a leash and, if they are too far hear me very well, I tone them and they stop what they are doing. I spend a lot of time on foot looking for explanations as to what my dogs are doing and, even bear hunting, I do not pack dogs in unless I can cut the race off and get them in the front especially when they are younger. Other than the times that dogs aren't allowed in the woods, my dogs hunt 3-6 days a week and its been that way when I hunted straight and when I switch hitted my dogs and, as I have said before, I can honestly say that I have never seen a dog that didn't, at some point, offer to run trash when the right opportunity came along. If there is something I can do differently, trust me, I want to do it because my dogs caught three coyotes this summer.

There is a huge difference in good game and good tracks. Just cause pups are on a crap ton of tracks don't really mean anything they need to be on a crap ton of caught game. A crap ton will very in how hard you hunt and the days you hunt and so on. I think there is a huge difference in starting a pup with a old solid broke dog, and a prime solid broke dog thats catching game not just running it and popping up easy ones like the old dog. I think someone that was switch hitting would be able to build more well rounded dogs quiker then a guy like me who has decent dogs and only running one species. Switch hitting I'll leave that up to the pro's I would have some super trashy effers.

merlo_105 wrote:There is a huge difference in good game and good tracks. Just cause pups are on a crap ton of tracks don't really mean anything they need to be on a crap ton of caught game. A crap ton will very in how hard you hunt and the days you hunt and so on. I think there is a huge difference in starting a pup with a old solid broke dog, and a prime solid broke dog thats catching game not just running it and popping up easy ones like the old dog. I think someone that was switch hitting would be able to build more well rounded dogs quiker then a guy like me who has decent dogs and only running one species. Switch hitting I'll leave that up to the pro's I would have some super trashy effers.

I agree and I've also said that I'm not talking about the dogs that get out once a week or the pups that are started from scratch. I'm talking about guys that get out 3+ days per week(when the law allows) and pups that are started and ran with finished dogs that catch a lot of game. No matter what dogs I've hunted/hunted with, and no matter how much good game a pup has seen, I have yet to see a pup that turned out to be a very good dog that didn't, at some point, need correction for off game. I also cannot thing of any dog, past or present, that I have seen that didn't need to be checked from time to time, as well. Sure, I've seen dogs that I'd make large bets on as to whether or not they'd run junk but I also know that, with every dog I've seen, there is a chance, someday, that I would lose my money. I bought a dog this spring that I bought for his ability to check tracks and stay honest and I've seen him take extreme pressure on tracks and trees which is why I am very happy with him. That being said, I also know that a dog is a dog and every situation is different so I never let my guard down. Its one thing to listen to a race that doesn't sound quite right and dismiss it as a track that never got warmed up enough to catch and another thing to walk down and investigate and find out that a dog was doing a half a$$ed job of working junk because they knew it was wrong. I can't count the number of times I've walked in with snow to check out the details of a race to find out that a lose resulted in dog tracks straying on junk up to 100yds or so and then returning to the cat track. Sure, they didn't take the track and got back to business but, the pup that does that is showing interest and costing valuable time so I will keep an eye on them and, eventually, correct the problem when the time is right.

To everyone who ran one game and also switch hitted. Did you find your self's with bigger coyote problems when on straight Bobcat or when you switch hitted? I read a lot about Coyote problems and I understand that a dog might run one or two during the breeding season. And do you find that your dogs located better on bobcat and tree'd better when switch hitted? Thanks

I've never noticed any difference in trash races whether I ran straight bobcat dogs or switch hitters. I also think the switch hitting helps the locate/tree thing for a lot of reasons.

I believe if your primary method of starting tracks is by striking, you will end up with fairly decent tracks to run, which should help a lot in keeping pups from running trash. Pups like that may never get in the situations that my pups get into. During our bobcat kill season which last year closed in 18 days I go to great length to start a bobcat track. I have even walked out tracks 500 yards to start it. Some days I can't find any tracks', so if I find a track it gets run during the kill season if there is a 1% chance of catching it.

J,

Another good example is when your dogs trail a cat thru a coyote pairs core area. Especially tree in it, they will come and harass the dogs. I've never had it happen myself, but heard enough stories of it happening that it does happen.

Switch hitting make it much easier for me to have dogs that treed early. I never thought switch hitting created deer or elk problems for me. Not running bear sure made it easier to reconize a coyote race much quicker. Dogs that really push a track seem to run a yote & running bear with the same ease, and had a few famous bear hunters told me the same thing. If one is able to find enough cats there would be no reason to switch hit except cat season is short. I have owned a few hounds that needed none to very little trash breaking when started young & kept with clean dogs. However, would never guarantee that my hounds would never trash. I have had coyotes come into my hounds when trailing & treed. Couple years ago at a cat tree a yote came in and both Tom & I saw the yote run past us as we got to the tree. Al

Some of the better rig dogs for cat will rig tracks that would surprise most. I remember years ago on the old shadetree site, a lot of guys told me that I couldn't rig cats and then ended up telling me that, just because I rigged them on the coast, I couldn't do it other places. When I moved to Idaho, I was told that I wouldn't be able to rig cats here like I did in Oregon and I wasn't going to find nearly as many cats, either. I haven't noticed a difference in numbers. I don't have a dog that I consider to be a cat rig dog right now and most of my rigging these days is for bear because we usually have snow during cat season, but they still strike cats off the box and hit some that are too old to move. I don't rig them in the super frozen conditions, though. Personally, I think that is the worst conditions for rigging and trailing but they still hit a few out of the box for me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think how a person starts the track has as much to do with the quality of the track as does the amount of effort the dog and hunter want to put into getting a track moving. Some guys only want hotter tracks and will end up with dogs that hunt like they want and some guys will run anything they think they can move and end up with dogs that fit that, as well regardless of how they start them.

Unreal_tk wrote:J,

Another good example is when your dogs trail a cat thru a coyote pairs core area. Especially tree in it, they will come and harass the dogs. I've never had it happen myself, but heard enough stories of it happening that it does happen.

I had a coyote follow my dogs out to the truck one time and stood at my tailgate when the dogs loaded. I know it sounds crazy but I had a witness who got out with his bow and shot the coyote. He was not scared of us at all. Had to be one of the goofiest things I'd seen.

dhostetler wrote:I believe if your primary method of starting tracks is by striking, you will end up with fairly decent tracks to run, which should help a lot in keeping pups from running trash. Pups like that may never get in the situations that my pups get into. During our bobcat kill season which last year closed in 18 days I go to great length to start a bobcat track. I have even walked out tracks 500 yards to start it. Some days I can't find any tracks', so if I find a track it gets run during the kill season if there is a 1% chance of catching it.

dhostetler....
yes sir....Decent tracks to run and the ability to have more control over your young dogs as well. This also serves in allowing you to have had a previous trash issue with that young hound and place it on the back burner until the time is right for correction. I had an exceptional night a few nights ago with three back to back blow up rig strikes and if you jump the game within a few minutes of the start like I did? It is pretty easy to funnel in a young hound and have it end up where it belongs. You can't do this roading or free casting.


Thomas

You stick to this hound hunting and you will experience a coyote harassing your hounds on track...Sometimes it is good to not jump the gun thinking the hound started it.

Merlo
I have owned many good hounds that simply could not and never did locate well on bobcats and all the hunting in the world didn't change the dog.

Could someone define varmint for me?