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I agree that it is up to the houndsman to keep our lion population at a healthy number for years to come. But that scares me also. There is alot of guys who do not give a shit about the cats! If they can not kill one every year than they want to up the quota or do away with the permits. To me they are not houndsman. I have chased hounds for 26 years and killed one tom. I used to hunt region 2 up at 2:00 a.m. to hope to cut a track. Drive 450 miles for a track! We do not have the deer and elk herds to support the cats of the years past! Let alone the cats we have now. The big toms are still there, they are just not around every tree like some want. To kill sub-adult lions to balance out the population is the same thinking that got Region two in the spot they were in. Ethics! Catach and release! If you kill the sub-adults and females what you chasin in two years?
You better have some good bobcat dogs! It is about the Lions and the dogs, and if you cannot enjoy them without killing one then you should not be doing it! In my opioin if you raise the permits or go back to a quota free fer all with over harvest with the game herds at an all time low . You just FU@#$# yourself! They will not reproduce like a rabbit. If the Game is not there the cats are not there !! Pretty easy to figure out to me. You want bigger cats stop taking every joe blow with a tag out to kill a Lion!! It is about balance. If we as houndsman can not get that or want to we are screwwed. Which pisses me of the thought of my sons not being able to hear there own hounds sing there story. My 5cents worth. I do not post on here much but had to on this one.

Sconrad u couldn't have said that any better!!

They FWP are increasing quotes. Next it will be two tags and year around season.

i hunt alot in regions two and one. I dont see the amount of big mature toms anymore but that cat populations in my opionions are going through the roof. When the hybrid season comes after feb 1st next year in region 2. The quota gets cut in half. So if there are 30 tags in a area and 9 people kill cats there will only be 6 tags left. People who are drawing the permits arent killing all the cats, look at district 200,201 there were 20 tags and they only killed 4 toms. and in 202-203 there were 30 tags and they only killed 9 cats. When the quota went away i saw alot of people sell there dogs since it wasnt worth it to have them anymore. in my opinion people who get the tags dont have the dogs to chase the cats and just expect everyone to take them. I had numerous people ask this year to come with me because they have tags but i always say no now because they arent appriciative and just care about killing. You definately figure out who the true houndsmen are in your area who could care less about killing and just the chase. I have drawn a few tags and caught many lions i could have shot and ive still never killed one because i havent caught the one i want when i have the tag. I let 4 good friends kill cats this year and 2 of them were in district 200. I havent had a problem in the last 4 years finding a cat track to run and 90% of the time i stay on the 30 miles of road i have behind my house. A full out quota will be terrible and everyone will be shooting the first cat they see because they are afraid of the season closing. just my 2 cents

I don't think anyone on here wants to damage the lion population in Montana, but I think the permit system has done just that. I believe it has set us up. We have killed a lot of big toms in the last few years and the population has boomed. Now with a more than healthy wolf population, healthy bear population and lion population, and our ungulates at a low everyone is pushing for predator control more than ever. So I am afraid that they are going to go all guns on lions as well as other predators. I think if the quota system would of stayed then the guns would be pointed more in the direction of wolves and bears. But now with a over population of lions FWP is gonna open the flood gates for harvest. I don't think there is any easy solution to this issue but I don't believe letting the lion population get out of control is the right answer.

BADLANDCAT where do you hunt around Greatfalls? I have hunted up there a bit and never had an issue finding lions.

LARRY I don't know anything about Jefferson County so I really have nothing to argue about with you and your area. But I am sure there is someone on here that has some input on that area.

MThounds I don't know who did the study on lions in 292 but I know people that have hunted that area for 35 years and have never had an issue with the lion population in that area. I think the main areas like Garnet that everyone hunts is just prone to get hit hard. Any idea who exactly participated in that study????? Who gathered the info. that was obtained? You seem to have some knowledge of 292 thought maybe you would share your knowledge? Thanks

http://missoulian.com/news/local/fwp-pr ... 963f4.html

Attend the regional meetings and make sure to submit your comments.

BIGBLUES wrote:
LARRY I don't know anything about Jefferson County so I really have nothing to argue about with you and your area. But I am sure there is someone on here that has some input on that area.

Apparently you don't like my input??? There's plenty of guys that like to pull the trigger, I'm sure you could get them to tell you the pop. is booming so they can get the chance to kill for another week and support your SFW predator stance. Anyone that thinks there's a multitude of predator problems that include bears and lions is off their rocker, its all wolves, plain and simple, there were no issues in your bitterroot before wolves with your ungulate populations, and the permit system did not create such a drastic boom in the pop. that there are lions running rampant killing off all the deeer and elk. You seem all too willing to throw the lions under the bus with the wolves. Do what ya gotta do to get your lions where you want them, but don't throw drepedation in the mix. So you didn't put your draw tag on the lion kitten that you had stuffed in your backpack this year?

catdogs wrote:http://missoulian.com/news/local/fwp-proposal-to-increase-mountain-lion-quotas-brings-dispute/article_e89d8aae-850f-11e1-8947-0019bb2963f4.html

Attend the regional meetings and make sure to submit your comments.

I get a kick out of the Toston deer herd part of that article. Wolves are nonexistent there compared to many other parts of the state, but just ask a rancher and the damn lions and wolves are eating up everything but the barn shingles. Its too bad, its a loosing battle when half the houndsmen population is licking their chops at the opportunity to kill some more. Better hope we get a bear season so we have soemthing to run with our dogs in ten years....

I would like to know who and how they determine what has killed an elk calf in the Bitterroot elk calf mortality study. Some college aged volunteer I bet.

BIGBLUES – The MT FWP wildlife biologist in that was in charge of the Garnet lion study was Rich DeSimone. I had met him a couple of times and I personally know several of the houndsmen that were involved with the capturing of the lions. I used to hunt this area before the closure took place and still hunt it on occasion.

After the overharvest of cats in Region 2 caused by high quota numbers, the lion population dropped dramatically. As catdogs said, lion harvest was highest in 1998 at 776 lions. This is true, and if you throw in all know human caused mortalities the number jumps to 818 lions for 1998. Only 10 years earlier in 1988 the lion harvest was 159 cats! Montana’s lion population could not sustain this type of pressure and it was us houndsmen that fought for the reduction of the quotas. DeSimone was able to collect data on the study area to prove how easily the lion population is influenced by hunting pressure. It was through his work in the Garnet study that the permit system was introduced and eventually put into place. There were a lot of mixed feelings and concerns with the permit system, but proved necessary for the long run.

DeSimone said about lion management, "Most states have no idea what they're doing. They just hope that nobody challenges them" (about the quota numbers). It is also interesting to note that hunting was responsible for 58 to 75 percent of the radio-collared mountain lions within the study area annually. The full report is listed online here: http://www.panthera.org/sites/default/f ... Report.pdf The closure of the study area was necessary to acquire the data needed for the study. At one time, the study area had one of the highest populations of cats in the state. This healthy population did help to “seed” the surrounding areas.

Instead of jumping to conclusions about what is the right or wrong way to pursue the harvest of our cats, we need to step back and look at the big picture. What goals and objectives are we trying to accomplish? What type of population would we like to see? Also what length of harvest season would we like to have? That was always a big complaint with the quota system. Many times the quotas were filled within a week or two. There are many types of hunters and groups involved and we all need to be active to come up with a collaborative effort. We houndsmen have worked hard at trying to keep a healthy population of lions around for future generations to enjoy. We are the most effective group that maintains the harvest of this game animal, and we need to work together to keep a positive image and to ensure our success.

I would like to see how well you guys in Region 2 support the permit system in how it relates to big toms in a couple of years. In Region 1 we have had the permit system several years longer. In our area there are guys that got rid of there hounds too once the permit system started and there are also guys in our area that hunt only during bobcat season and if they have a cougar kill tag. I don't consider those guys houndmen.

I to believe we have had an explosion in the cougar population as a result of the big toms being killed. I would be happy with killing a nice tom once every 10 to 15 years but we've got to have the big toms to do that. In unit 100 I know of only two & it could possible be the same tom that leaves a track that could top 150 lb. The closest I got to him was 2 weeks ago I turned on him and caught a sow there was very limited snow and I tried to walk out the track finally I gave up at 3 AM in the rain.

The permit system is perfect for creating a high lion population just not good for big cats.

catdogs wrote:I would like to know who and how they determine what has killed an elk calf in the Bitterroot elk calf mortality study. Some college aged volunteer I bet.

+1

MThound wrote:
Instead of jumping to conclusions about what is the right or wrong way to pursue the harvest of our cats, we need to step back and look at the big picture. What goals and objectives are we trying to accomplish? What type of population would we like to see? Also what length of harvest season would we like to have? That was always a big complaint with the quota system. Many times the quotas were filled within a week or two. There are many types of hunters and groups involved and we all need to be active to come up with a collaborative effort. We houndsmen have worked hard at trying to keep a healthy population of lions around for future generations to enjoy. We are the most effective group that maintains the harvest of this game animal, and we need to work together to keep a positive image and to ensure our success.

If we need to keep a permit system I would go for only a 4 week harvest season in the permit units of Region 1. How many 6 point bull elk do you guys think would be shot in MT if we if we had a 4.5 month rifle bull elk season every year.

I have hunted region 1 and 2 while living here in montana the last twenty one years. I harvested my only lion in the Garnet range back in 97. Both regions are different. Region one has more acess as far as roads. There are areas that can be remote. MY point is we need to be able to look at our population as populations. What is working in one region may not work in another. If some are saying they cannot find that big tom, my suggestion is make the permit a split permit. You put in for a male tag or a female tag. Will cut down on the tom harvest and give a more equal harvest. I am not saying a 50/50 but 60/40 or 70/30. Males of course being the higher number. I know some will say well what if you cannot tell. We are the ones who say who shoots cats! If you cannot tell let them go. If a mistake is made then you pay the price accountabilty is key! Ethics is a must. I know it is asking alot for some but we have to regulate each other. The cat population explosion that SOME are talking about will not sustain. Where there is no game there will be no cats! Who can honestly say we will have cats forever? I say BullS@!#. Unless there is something done with the apex predator ( wolf) we are screwed. In my opion we need to keep the pressure on the fwp and the local gov. We can manage the lion and the bear! Now if we can show some respect for the lions and our future generations. We have a chance. Dead lions do not leave tracks! We are the ones who need to be accountable. This is my passion and those true houndsman out thereneed to stick together! Catch and release .

Trying to use the Missoula Management Area... aaahhemm I mean Missoula Kill/Slaughter Zone as an example of where big toms come from, in my opinion isn't really very accurate. Everyone buys a general tag and then they hunt in the draw units. When they tree a monster they shoot the cat, load it up and turn it in that it was shot it in the Missoula slaughter zone. Unless someone calls and complains or know something to get the fish and game a direction to head with an investigation they have their big tom and no one is wiser.
To try to say lion populations are out of control or even high is not responsible. How bout the fish and game work with houndsmen and lets start counting cats? How bout we mark them with paint balls and get a good count, saturate an area with houndsmen over a week long and get a count. Problem is some guys say, "Well I treed 27 cats this season in unit blah blah." Well so what? It's the same 4 cats over and over.
Wolves are the culprit, PERIOD. End of STORY!!!! Blaming bears and mountain lions is f-ing crazy. (And yes I am an SFW member and have been on the board and that is the belief of 95% in Montana SFW). 15 years ago we had the highest mountain lion numbers we have ever had in the history of the state as well as the black bears were rolling. Guess what? Never had a problem finding a deer or elk. Does anyone find it f-ing amazing that the lion quota is double what the quota is on wolves. I see 10 f-ing wolf tracks for every lion track. Come on people, wake the F- up!!!!
Lions are one of the few predators, that any given year we can virtually eliminate them as houndsmen. Seriously, if the lion population was bad and we truly needed to drop numbers they could open the season with no limit and no quota and one good season they would be all but gone. With the aid of snowmachines, 4 wheel drives and the logging roads they could be wiped out.
Unless someone has a physical handicap, is elderly and has never got a cat there is no reason to be shooting females. I have been on close to 400 cat trees and have seen less that 10 of them killed over 25 years, I have NEVER let someone kill a female. Each to their own and many say "Well if it is legal then go hard!". Whatever, I can't believe houndsmen need to ruin their own damn sport by killing the critter that supposedly gives them so much joy in chasing.
Quotas mean absolutely nothing if we as houndsmen would stick together and refuse to let anyone take a female over our dogs. Come on! You caught the cat, take a picture, enjoy your dogs, pet them up and walk away and come back with some pups another day and do it again. And maybe let a 110-120 lb tom walk now and then, think it would be nice to see some more mature toms, but guess what? We are the only ones that can make that happen. Casey