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david wrote:Yes, I dont know how to get my point across without using examples. And every example is going to be flawed.

The cat doesnt need to do exactly the same thing, because the dog is learning cat behavior. It could be in a different state. There are dogs that begin to anticipate bobcat behavior, and the races get shorter and shorter and the percentage of caught cats gets higher and higher.

Bobcat races after the jump for some dogs are often under 30 minutes.
And they catch more than 50% of the cats they jump. If the cat does not climb in that time window, it will be stopped on the ground.

If this is the type Walkers you have, I want to know more about them.
a lot more.

I fully agree with you as far as decline of the breed goes.

Also, I love your signature at the bottom of your post's.
I think I missed my chance on this one fer sure.

Ok David the the samr thing on a top bear hound. They rigg strike and the tailgate drops and 5 hounds hit the rd. 4 of emm wind and beller and dive off down the leehigh side goen in too a canyon through the timber, while the older dog around 5 1/2 wheeles and topd over the up hill odr and droped quickly down in too a deep canyon muleing it on a deer trail headed west and now ya got 2 races but the other 4 dogs are headed north west on the other side of the ridge in the next canyon !Next thing ya know the solo experienced dog has cut the bears escape route off and got him sliden too a hault and the fight is on and here now come smoken to the scean the 4 other dogs who was lagittemetly doggen him and rounded the point and come into the south werethe one dog was waiting and ambushed the bear head on ! Isent he pretty smart ? Couldnt it be just tons of experiences too gain being a finished hound ? I never seen any hound finish too were its brains was greater than its nose till about 4 1/2-5 yrs old/ HAVE YOU ? No I think not, so then its a piled on accumalation of hunting experiences stored in a dogs brain that lends him too just know what too do! a poodle,dockson,terrier,collie,any dog can gain enoughf experiences too make a brain better than his nose in time/ lessen his handler don`t know what the dogs is doing and keeps repermanding the dog or driveing up into the track and blowing it all up on the dogs!I know yaknow that David I know your a hunter. Just admit color blindness against or for a breed makes some folks make blanket statements they can`t prove. Opions may change but facts remain/boy ole Ed Bates sure stoped alot of goen an blowen with that one !

were still ok right I`m not pissen ya off I hope for me we have covered 20 yurs at least in learning for alot of newbees and their are many others who know all this and are reading it and could add themselves no least the a second or third volume too all thus and cover it futher/right ?!

cecil j. wrote:[ ? I never seen any hound finish too were its brains was greater than its nose till about 4 1/2-5 yrs old/ HAVE YOU ?...
Just admit color blindness against or for a breed makes some folks make blanket statements they can`t prove.

You are absolutely right Cecil. I have never seen a full hound finish to where his brains was greater than its nose... ever. I am quite sure that the pure bred hounds I kept were not the smartest hounds available out there in this big world, but I never saw it happen to them at any age.

I love your story of the smart old bear dog. That is the type story I wanted to come home with after every hunt. It is the kind of story that makes me smile every time I think of it for the rest of my life. It is the same type of story that makes you smile and remember when your children or grand children do something that reveals a level of intellegence or skill or desire or maturity that seems beyond their age.

It is the type of story I wanted to come home with after every hunt, but never really could until I started hunting with dogs that could use their eyes and ears just as skilfully as their nose. They were not full hound.

I am not talking bear hunting. I have never even seen a bear in a tree with hounds under it, but as I understand it, they are pretty big and their bodies give off a lot of scent. I have seen them and heard them crashing through the woods, and I have smelled them myself. I would hope that a hound could locate a bears position in the woods with a little practice, and hopefully even less than 4 or 5 years.

This thread is in the cat section, or I would not have even seen it most likely. I have hunted bobcats with a lot of different hounds, but I never got the immense pleasure and extreme pride in a dog until I got to spend a little time with a part-hound dog. No, it did not take her 4 or 5 years to start putting things together. It took 4 or 5 bobcat races. She solo treed the 5th cat she was ever on, and it only got better from there. Dogs out here dont get big numbers of bobcats to get experienced on. She didn't need big numbers to become the most effective bobcat catcher I have ever been blessed and cursed to spend some time with. She was very smart, had a good memory, and used all her senses. She lacked some important things though. Things that virtually every decent Walker dog has.

There are so many Walkers in this world. I think that if all the other dogs were removed and a person spent his whole life trying to explore all the different strains, he would die without even having heard of some of them.

I am sure there are some very smart Walkers out there some where. I am sure also that if a breeder was aware of the qualities that the most phenominal bobcat catchers poses, he could selectively breed for them within the Walker breed. You might even come up with a Walker whose seeing and hearing abilities are highly refined. I know some Walkers are used for squirrel dogs. That is probably where I would look for the eyes and ears. It is largely a combination breed used for all types of tree game, but I dont think breeding for some of these bobcat dog qualities would hurt the dogs too bad on the other game (except possibly bear), and it might even help. In the areas where bobcats readily tree in trees where they feel secure and stay there; all this "seeing hearing" stuff is un-necesary. It's the dogs that often must stop the cat on the ground that really need it, or in areas where the cats always bail out.

Decline of the Walker breed? Are you kidding me?
I think the breed goes thru changes according to location, specific use and fad.
But I think the breed is alive and well. I would like to see it taken some places it has not yet been as far as bobcat dogs that can catch bobcats consistently on the ground.

As far as my color blindness and making blanket statements I can not prove: First I would say that Cecil, you are getting better at using that keyboard and getting it to say what you are thinking. Your post was extremely clear and made powerful points that could be easily read and understood. You keep at it cause you got a lot of wisdom and experience to share and you are getting better at expressing them.

I have a lot of blindness for sure. I also say alot of things that I can not prove beccause a lot of it is just theory based on my experiences. A lot of it is about trying to take bobcat dogs to a new level, a level I have not yet seen in existance. People have not been breeding for bobcat dogs very long as the history of hunting dogs goes. Those that exist, exist for specific location. Bobcat hunting is a great sport, and I beleive it could be made a lot more accessable to the common dog man, if there were breeders paying more attention to the specific requirements for great bobcat dogs. The treeing Walker breed would be an excellent place to start, (or, continue, as the case may be).

david wrote:

cecil j. wrote:[ ? I never seen any hound finish too were its brains was greater than its nose till about 4 1/2-5 yrs old/ HAVE YOU ?...
Just admit color blindness against or for a breed makes some folks make blanket statements they can`t prove.

You are absolutely right Cecil. I have never seen a full hound finish to where his brains was greater than its nose... ever. I am quite sure that the pure bred hounds I kept were not the smartest hounds available out there in this big world, but I never saw it happen to them at any age.

I love your story of the smart old bear dog. That is the type story I wanted to come home with after every hunt. It is the kind of story that makes me smile every time I think of it for the rest of my life. It is the same type of story that makes you smile and remember when your children or grand children do something that reveals a level of intellegence or skill or desire or maturity that seems beyond their age.

It is the type of story I wanted to come home with after every hunt, but never really could until I started hunting with dogs that could use their eyes and ears just as skilfully as their nose. They were not full hound.

I am not talking bear hunting. I have never even seen a bear in a tree with hounds under it, but as I understand it, they are pretty big and their bodies give off a lot of scent. I have seen them and heard them crashing through the woods, and I have smelled them myself. I would hope that a hound could locate a bears position in the woods with a little practice, and hopefully even less than 4 or 5 years.

This thread is in the cat section, or I would not have even seen it most likely. I have hunted bobcats with a lot of different hounds, but I never got the immense pleasure and extreme pride in a dog until I got to spend a little time with a part-hound dog. No, it did not take her 4 or 5 years to start putting things together. It took 4 or 5 bobcat races. She solo treed the 5th cat she was ever on, and it only got better from there. Dogs out here dont get big numbers of bobcats to get experienced on. She didn't need big numbers to become the most effective bobcat catcher I have ever been blessed and cursed to spend some time with. She was very smart, had a good memory, and used all her senses. She lacked some important things though. Things that virtually every decent Walker dog has.

There are so many Walkers in this world. I think that if all the other dogs were removed and a person spent his whole life trying to explore all the different strains, he would die without even having heard of some of them.

I am sure there are some very smart Walkers out there some where. I am sure also that if a breeder was aware of the qualities that the most phenominal bobcat catchers poses, he could selectively breed for them within the Walker breed. You might even come up with a Walker whose seeing and hearing abilities are highly refined. I know some Walkers are used for squirrel dogs. That is probably where I would look for the eyes and ears. It is largely a combination breed used for all types of tree game, but I dont think breeding for some of these bobcat dog qualities would hurt the dogs too bad on the other game (except possibly bear), and it might even help. In the areas where bobcats readily tree in trees where they feel secure and stay there; all this "seeing hearing" stuff is un-necesary. It's the dogs that often must stop the cat on the ground that really need it, or in areas where the cats always bail out.

Decline of the Walker breed? Are you kidding me?
I think the breed goes thru changes according to location, specific use and fad.
But I think the breed is alive and well. I would like to see it taken some places it has not yet been as far as bobcat dogs that can catch bobcats consistently on the ground.

As far as my color blindness and making blanket statements I can not prove: First I would say that Cecil, you are getting better at using that keyboard and getting it to say what you are thinking. Your post was extremely clear and made powerful points that could be easily read and understood. You keep at it cause you got a lot of wisdom and experience to share and you are getting better at expressing them.

I have a lot of blindness for sure. I also say alot of things that I can not prove beccause a lot of it is just theory based on my experiences. A lot of it is about trying to take bobcat dogs to a new level, a level I have not yet seen in existance. People have not been breeding for bobcat dogs very long as the history of hunting dogs goes. Those that exist, exist for specific location. Bobcat hunting is a great sport, and I beleive it could be made a lot more accessable to the common dog man, if there were breeders paying more attention to the specific requirements for great bobcat dogs. The treeing Walker breed would be an excellent place to start, (or, continue, as the case may be).

Well David ya come circle and was flyen,then as persuite creptu /ya swithched too a new pattern and that didn`t last 3 sets swings/this new pattern lasted just one swing of the new set and ya lite streight-away-out high held tail and for the race of your life........hahahaha. As I looked up the tree on this I see`d you was way-up-high in the bottle bush tops ofthe tree canopy and streched out flatt had your eyes all most completely closed and you was caught.
I looked at my 2 hounds ol buddie & trixxie, a Walker and a Plott and they was eyes pinned too the limbs side of the tall tree you had took for refuage ! I softly sad too em by their ears= good cat dogs, good dogs !

I am not sure what you mean Cecil.

If you are meaning that you changed my mind about this issue, you are very wrong.

If you are saying that your point is much stronger than mine, well, you might be right. I dont know. I am not completely clear on what it is. I know you have a lot of experience to draw from. I also know you were not a bobcat hunter, but a combination hunter who sometimes ran bobcats.

In this thread about pure bred treeing walkers in the cat section, I can only say that in my experience none of the pure bred UKC breeds of coon hounds have worked out well for me on bobcat.
I have used some stupid examples and said some dumb things just because I am an idiot that obviously cant always help people to read my thoughts or see the films in my mind that give me these thoughts.

I only know what I know and I dont know what I dont know. If I am trying to know what I dont know, I appologize. I do try to be hopeful and envision things as better than they are, and try to imagine what it would take to move things toward that mark. i.e. I dont beleive bobcat dogs are developed specifically for bobcat nearly to the level that they could be.

I do know this: a little mixed bred mutt made every full bred hound I have ever hunted look like a complete idiot. I would not have thought they were complete idiots in every case until I had seen the possibilities within the canine world. I have seen the possibilities.

It makes me dream. It makes me think of dogs that a person could start on bobcat, and with a similar amount of effort as starting a coon dog or bear dog, begin catching bobcats. That is how it was with this dog. It is possible in the canine world.

I also know this: a lot of hunters do not put out the effort to be in the woods with their dogs as I have done. You can check with anyone that has hunted with me very much about that. I am a dumb as a Walker about that. I will risk death, and have, to get with the dogs so I can watch them and know exactly what is going on.

I also know this: a lot of breeders are not the hardest hunters. Some of them hunt very little. There is a saying in the West (that is too black and white and not fully true, but) it goes like this "Hunters dont breed, and breeders dont hunt". You have to remember some of these guys used to spay their best females so their hunting was never interupted.

I have quit hunting. Most people still hunting out there would not offer the information that I am trying to offer to breeders so that they might know what to look for in a dog to be used for bobcat. Walker breeders included). Beleive it or not, I AM TRYING TO HELP.

I would like to see alot of people enjoy the great thrill of catching bobcats without having to give up their wife and half of everything they own, and go into debt they cant climb out of. I think this would be possible with dogs like the one I am talking about.

I am out of time again. Talk to you later

david wrote:I am not sure what you mean Cecil.

If you are meaning that you changed my mind about this issue, you are very wrong.

If you are saying that your point is much stronger than mine, well, you might be right. I dont know. I am not completely clear on what it is. I know you have a lot of experience to draw from. I also know you were not a bobcat hunter, but a combination hunter who sometimes ran bobcats.

In this thread about pure bred treeing walkers in the cat section, I can only say that in my experience none of the pure bred UKC breeds of coon hounds have worked out well for me on bobcat.
I have used some stupid examples and said some dumb things just because I am an idiot that obviously cant always help people to read my thoughts or see the films in my mind that give me these thoughts.

I only know what I know and I dont know what I dont know. If I am trying to know what I dont know, I appologize. I do try to be hopeful and envision things as better than they are, and try to imagine what it would take to move things toward that mark. i.e. I dont beleive bobcat dogs are developed specifically for bobcat nearly to the level that they could be.

I do know this: a little mixed bred mutt made every full bred hound I have ever hunted look like a complete idiot. I would not have thought they were complete idiots in every case until I had seen the possibilities within the canine world. I have seen the possibilities.

It makes me dream. It makes me think of dogs that a person could start on bobcat, and with a similar amount of effort as starting a coon dog or bear dog, begin catching bobcats. That is how it was with this dog. It is possible in the canine world.

I also know this: a lot of hunters do not put out the effort to be in the woods with their dogs as I have done. You can check with anyone that has hunted with me very much about that. I am a dumb as a Walker about that. I will risk death, and have, to get with the dogs so I can watch them and know exactly what is going on.

I also know this: a lot of breeders are not the hardest hunters. Some of them hunt very little. There is a saying in the West (that is too black and white and not fully true, but) it goes like this "Hunters dont breed, and breeders dont hunt". You have to remember some of these guys used to spay their best females so their hunting was never interupted.

I have quit hunting. Most people still hunting out there would not offer the information that I am trying to offer to breeders so that they might know what to look for in a dog to be used for bobcat. Walker breeders included). Beleive it or not, I AM TRYING TO HELP.

I would like to see alot of people enjoy the great thrill of catching bobcats without having to give up their wife and half of everything they own, and go into debt they cant climb out of. I think this would be possible with dogs like the one I am talking about.

David I pmed ya and you know the score now and pmed me back/ were good and it was all good.

I want ya too know David, I found that same thing lacking in some most actall walker dogs/ cepts in several lines and they had cat dog brains as you learned it in your studient and hunten yrs too. But they was out there you just didn`t run acrost em/ even smarter game is a redsided gray fox and then above that a red fon (northern oreastern red fox) I run them with hounds sence a kid David and we had foxhounds x coon hounds and kept breeden a lines and crossen lines too em and theycome out coondog in full ness,but retained foxdog line brains. example :

I had a 18 month ole gyp redtick hound named little Trixxie, she come from Sonny Kendrix and was on 40 fox races and tree up by 10 months old and he said she was just like her dame/his best hound a redtick named old Trixxie. He desided I should give him $ 25.00 for her/ boy what a gift ! Old Trixxie was out of Trippletts (joe0) hounds his best redtick female named Starr. And he stood ole Danger too Starr who was one hell of a hound owned by Sonny Turnner over on the coast ! All these hounds was gray fox & cat dogs material the very best kept from Boosher Trigg hounds x on Doc Boatwrites Flaggtail Runnen Walkers he culled and give too the tripplets, as an when they fell of cyote and treed uo on varmitts out at camp beal hunten.
The example is this little gem of a story and its true.

Well I was hunten in the riverbottem jungles by day lite one early sunny moreen and my 2 littermates (little Trixxie & Fly) and a Plott dog Harlen Maxxwell found and give too me that I found out was a hog dog and who he belonged too and later that week carryed him to the hunter, I had 3 hounds on this track and they made 3 passes and droped next over the levey along the river from the alfallffa fields and run hard in the berry & grape vine tree line area/between the sacramento river and the levy.
They made 2 passes and the track come out and went into a blackberrys ditch and trees at each end of this 1/8 of a mile run of dry grond ditch line. They was a gette it and I didn`t hear little Trixxie any longer just her warm nosed sis and that uggly mouthed short ball mouth Plott. I hurd as the dogs went firther away/ a slite slithering here andthen of something going back behind were I was standing up on the ditch bank. then a minute later anothe quiet slithering movement head up behind the first small sounding moments. I thought Trixxie what are you adoen and up too ?
I snuck down in ther an followed carefully and quiettly as i could and I caufgt sight of Trixxie she was SNEAKEN ALONG STELTLEY and had that hard-harr-harr dog look on her face! Then up ahead of her standing on a tall 7 ft high tree stump near the end of the ditch by the riverlevey that butted-up too this drain ditch for water. I seen the most beautifull BIG NORTHERN RED FOX !He was amuzzed looked on his face by listening too the 2 hounds headen plum the other way from him/ like he was just so smart and THE KING !
About that time Little Trixxie seen him sitten up too and she quickly flew in under the fox and felled treed up and was not barken much more tryen too cut off hiswanten too find a way too escape and vammoose ! He couldn`t and I didn`t hear the other 2 houinds now running that grate race/ but instead they come sneeking-in and got treed up with Trixxie and the fox gulped and his eys looked pittfully screwed too knowing he was caught ! So he gracefully sat down on his back haunches and covked his head fron side too side and marvled at the dogs/ who was looken up at him and treeing. He saw me comeing and hey he didn`t like that he stood back yp and bunched like a bobcat bowed up not wanten me too advance futher ! I stoped too let him settle again. But, that Plott dog starte jumpen up and scratchen down on the bark as hed slide back down and 2 time of that terrifyed the fox and he made of a leap for life and cleared a 9 ft high of blaclberry backdrop behind the little clearind around the tall stump/ he escaped an I caught the dogs and leashed em up and went home and called Sonny Kendrics and relayed ever thing that happen!
Sonny was very pleased and said she was just like her mom who was just as smart. Now them dogs comes along in lines of well kept hounds by good in the woods hunters who cull hard and trainouttheir dogs and place young dos they arn`t keepen for their own selves with other hunter who wont ruient em and will apcreate em to ! They come in regestered hounds also David, but like a good good hound very few are great like that/ in my humble opennion anyways.

HoundDawg wrote:I guess I'm in the minority because I don't really believe there is one magical breed that can solve all your problems. I think they are dogs and they are a lot more similar to each other than we want to admit. .

I dont know this guy but I am in full agreement with him. Ive had good and bad in every color scheme. To argue over which one is best is ignorance. Ive got blue and tri color in my kennel and and can catch game consistently with each one,by themselves! Just remember,good dogs come in a variety of colors, and as soon as you think yours are the best by heck someone with a different color dog is gonna put the whoopin on you.

edited

[edited

david wrote:

david wrote:[Take, for example, Ike's picture posted above. Near as I can see, there is only one dog that knows there is a lion in that tree. Ike will have a choice. Either get rid of that one dog and go back to "ignorance is bliss", or get him some more of that stuff.

OR... edit the post on April 17 and delete the picture (and the party invitation to the worthy). Then either get rid of that Walker, or keep her tied back out of the pictures from now on.

Ike, my mom is not home, my therapist wont return my calls, and you wont say you didn't mean it that way . It has been a dark and lonely couple of days.

Lookout there David your ptrsently at (2) bullets a tight mouth, and will soon be up with me at (4) bulletts a bawll mouth/ now ole couss Ike is at (5) bullets that makes him a bucket mouth,and I knowmy sites are numbered as to being up there by Ikes next !You might even surpass us with all that good funnyness and then you will be THE KING !

Cecil, I actually came back to the library to delete those posts, but it wont let me. So i just had to leave them there edited

The counselor got a hold of me. Actually, it was more like a whisper on the wind: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control: against such there is no law."
And "do unto others as you would have them do to you"

Sorry Ike. I violated a lot of principles I believe in. trying my best to undo it. It's not working so good. Kinda like words out of my dumb mouth, I cant grab them and put them back in. Wish I could.

In fact, can we just start this thread all over again. I got several things I want to not say.

david wrote:Cecil, I actually came back to the library to delete those posts, but it wont let me. So i just had to leave them there edited

The counselor got a hold of me. Actually, it was more like a whisper on the wind: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control: against such there is no law."
And "do unto others as you would have them do to you"

Sorry Ike. I violated a lot of principles I believe in. trying my best to undo it. It's not working so good. Kinda like words out of my dumb mouth, I cant grab them and put them back in. Wish I could.

In fact, can we just start this thread all over again. I got several things I want to not say.

Ya just have too love a guy like ole David, his joy for life and persuite for a better hound and he sure bends and follows the loard cause he knows his masters voice allright !

Sorry, I just keep thinking about this stuff.

Sometime many years ago I watched a movie called "Shindlers List", a true story about the Nazi concentration camps.

This one scene just wont let me alone.

One of the comanders regularly goes out on the balcony overlooking one of the camps when he is in a bad mood. He stands there with his rifle and randomly blows one of the prisoners to kingdom come at long range.

On one occasion, he allows Shindler to go out on the balcony with him.
He tells Shindler something like "Watch this and you will see the picture of power" as he raises his gun.

Shindler says: "You are wrong. That would be the picture of weakness. true power is: having the ability to pull that trigger, and choosing not too..."

cecil j. wrote:[he knows his masters voice allright !

Thanks cecil, but Look at it this way: I am a pretty easy target. I am sure Ike must have had the cross hairs on me, and he didn't pull the trigger. Maybe he's the one who hears the master's voice.

I know my masters voice about like an unruly young Walker dog without his "hearing aid" on knows my voice. Unfortunately, God hasn't bought himself a tri tronics to use on me, and I sure got selective hearing sometimes.
I guess He keeps waiting for me to choose His way.

In the mean time, I keep Him pretty busy helping me pick up the broken peices.