BigGameHoundsmen.com

yes it will be interesting to see what the winter brings. Cookie was in on 1 lion last winter but caught a problem cat on her own in June. Burger was in on 3 lions last winter and stayed treed for 24 hrs with my black and tan on one lion. Burger was 7 months old at the time. Both pups where on 2 lynx as well son I am hoping for the best. Only time will tell if this cross will be made again. I will keep you updated as this is interesting for me as well.

I remember back in science class in High School talking about dominant and recessive genes. Once a gene is recessive, it will always be. For a recessive gene to be displayed in the offspring, it must come from both the male and female producing the litter. Inbreeding will concentrate the recessive genes. This creates more homozygous offspring and therefor creates a more consistant litter. One more thing to add is some traits can be a blend from both parents(gray calves from black cows and red bulls).

I also remember reading a post from Dad'sDogboy reguarding treeing. He mentioned having a treeing walker running with his running walkers and teaching them to tree. Was the gene to tree in his dogs all along or is it a learned trait?

I also recall a post from Liontracker about the GGS line of dogs. He mentioned in their past that they were crossed on wolves to increase their jaw strength. Was that the only trait that was gained or lost?


Just a couple of questions and some food for thought.

Scott

Sheimer,

I will attempt to rengage in this discussion!

Dads young associate who has 17 Clay Hounds now has 6 of his Hounds Treeing like Cur Dogs. Was the gene to do that always there or is it an acquired habit?

Our thought is that it is a little of one and a lot of both! All Walkers have evolved from the same Hounds 50 or more years ago, Treeing is probably a resessive trait, and as you have pointed out by in/line Breeding you can come up with a homzygous gene for treeing line of Hounds.

With ours we are having the opposite problem, when a Cat goes up, our little TW female is just like the other 10 Hounds in trying to find where the Cat has slipped out. When she does stop to try to locate and finds the Cat up and then trees we have 4 that will act like competion Coon Dawgs. They will rare up on the Tree and bark their head off! Gene or Acquired behavior?

Another factor in Breeding with Genetics in mind that has not been mentioned on here is a thing called "Sex Linked Genes". There is very little research been done concerning Hounds and this phenomenon! The Grey Hound and Pointer people have identified more than a few traits that are passed on more by the female or male!

In Cattle there has been much work done on this! The Dairy people have done the definitive work and have come up a term to describe these Sex linked traits.. EPD's... Estimated Predictable Differences! They are able to plan matings with reasonable assurances of what the offspring will be!

Mr. Mike Leonard and I have had good discussions about this and we both wish that more work had been done with Hounds and the "Sex Linked Gene". We are in complete agreement about which ones Dad and he think are verifiable and which there is still work to be done on!


There have been some great posts on this thread! Keep them coming as we can all learn something from each!

CJC

Here is my take on this whole deal. I know little to nothing about breeding and if I'm lucky can sometimes run down a crippled critter.

I relate pups to slot machines. Everyone thinks they know which one to put their quarter in, but few rarely do. Most good hard hunters can identify which one is a winner though. So when the time comes to put another quarter in, you're probably goint to pick the machines (dogs) that have thrown a few winners.

Some of my other observations. Some of the good dogs I've seen, A large number came out of the same female. I've yet to find a male that would throw good pups if crossed on any decent female. Then again, I've seen only a very few females that would do it. I'm always looking though.

Also, for whatever reason first time breedings seem to throw a higher percentage of good dogs. It doesn't make any sense, but it seems like it happens. Who knows maybe the expectations are higher for the cross the second time and the pups just don't live up.

Nolte wrote:Also, for whatever reason first time breedings seem to throw a higher percentage of good dogs.

I've seen and heard this time after time.

liontracker wrote:

Nolte wrote:Also, for whatever reason first time breedings seem to throw a higher percentage of good dogs.

I've seen and heard this time after time.

I've only bred a handful of litters but this seemed to be overall the case as well....Why do you guys think that would hold true? Do you think as we linebreed for superior traits we breed in other traits that may be buried in there that we don't even know about that seem to show themselves after a couple gens? Interested in ya'lls thoughts...

It will probably be awhile before we know the answer to that one. it probably has to do with evolution and survival of the fittest. The first litter is the most important for survival
of the pair.

CJC - I read your post and went out to feed the cows and mull it over. In respect to EPD's, they are working with something that is not as influenced by training and personality. They are dealing with more definitive traits (ie. milk production, frame size and such). My interaction with the cows will not change how well they will transfer hay into muscle. There is also a much broader study group. A single bull will produce up to several hundred calves per year. On the ranch that I run, we deal with embryo transplants, so we have up to a dozen full siblings each year. This gives the breeder a much better idea what is happening compared to a litter of pups. I think that the history of a cow(pedigree) goes back considerably farther than that of a dog. Not that I don't agree with what your saying, I just feel we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples. With dogs, we are dealing with so much enviromental impact after the genetics have played their part, it makes it difficult to know where one ends and one begins in reguard to the traits that are desireable. It would be easy to make a dog big or little compared to making it track or tree different.


In reguard to "sex-linked" genetics, I'm totally in the dark. Not being a smart ass, but I've only heard of "Sexlink chickens". I don't know if there is any relation or not.

As far as the first litter being better than following litters out of the same cross, I don't understand how they can differ. The same ingredients are being mixed. I understand that a mixed drink can differ from one drink to another, But not the difference between a martini and Margeritta.


Scott

I've read and heard some good hound breeders say that proven crosses are not a sure thing. A cross that produced a high percentage of above average dogs the first time is just as likely to produce below average dogs the next time.

This doesn't make any sense to me and I didn't believe it at first, but my own experience tells me those old breeders were right. Seen it happen more than once. I can't explain it, but I believe it.

This is all very easy for me... I breed with PERFORMANCE in mind, genetics is just the cherry on top.

Take care.
Mason

Rockcreek wrote:This is all very easy for me... I breed with PERFORMANCE in mind, genetics is just the cherry on top.

Take care.
Mason

HOORAY ROCK CREEK!!! Can everyone put there hands together for Rock Creek He breeds his dogs for performance what a friggin' rocket scientist he must be!!! I would like to personally thank him for yet another ingenius, well thought out, imformative post Now we can all stop breeding to the dog with the longest tail or the one who can stand on one leg the longest!!! Because Rock Creek has just spread another slab of his vast knowledge upon us....wich he just seems to do time and time again!!! Your such a great asset to this site!!! Why would anyone who breeds dogs wanna learn about genetics when we can just call you up and you can give us never before heard information like this "just breed for performance" I bet noboday has ever considered breeding the two best performing dogs they can get there hands on
"APPLAUSE" For Rock Creek

Thanks again "budz"

Let's take this a little further, science being where it is today with cloning of sheep, pigs, and what have you, if we had the money to do it and the science was available to us and we clone that super dog in our kennel, would that animal if not subjected to the same things throughout it's life as it's genetically identical parent, become that super dog? I believe that genetics plays an important role and is key to predict what you are going to end up with but if the animal is not exposed enough to what ever you want them to be good at, hunting, working cattle, retrieving ect.. they will never live up to the genetics behind them.

sourdough wrote:Let's take this a little further, science being where it is today with cloning of sheep, pigs, and what have you, if we had the money to do it and the science was available to us and we clone that super dog in our kennel, would that animal if not subjected to the same things throughout it's life as it's genetically identical parent, become that super dog? I believe that genetics plays an important role and is key to predict what you are going to end up with but if the animal is not exposed enough to what ever you want them to be good at, hunting, working cattle, retrieving ect.. they will never live up to the genetics behind them.

Most if not all of what we learn in life is after we hit the ground, and therefore my answer is no, a cloned dog will not live up to your expectations unless it lives through much of the same situations. Great point!

ike

What a great thread!
I have said before that the Hound hunting tradition here is still in it's early stages compared to you southern boys who have several generations of hunters filling your information banks.Alot of the things that are being discussed here are"smoke and mirrors" to many of us.
Looking out at the hounds in the yard it came to me that most of the blood running through their veins is from local stock,dogs that have been raised here for several generations with little to no influence from outside.
Having said that we believe that we do have quality hounds that will get it done in any fashion needed and hounds that will stack up against the best anywhere.Of course we have no way of measuring the quality of our dogs to yours without hunting them together which would be great of course but it leaves me wondering.
How much more is out there?What could new blood bring into what we already have and believe to be top dogs now?There are few pedigrees here that read anything close to what I have seen on this board.Is all this talk of breeding,inbreeding,line breeding and so on really just splitting hairs?
Fascinating!

sourdough wrote:Let's take this a little further, science being where it is today with cloning of sheep, pigs, and what have you, if we had the money to do it and the science was available to us and we clone that super dog in our kennel, would that animal if not subjected to the same things throughout it's life as it's genetically identical parent, become that super dog? I believe that genetics plays an important role and is key to predict what you are going to end up with but if the animal is not exposed enough to what ever you want them to be good at, hunting, working cattle, retrieving ect.. they will never live up to the genetics behind them.

This an interesting point sourdough......they have been Cloning some rodeo Buckin Horses as well as bulls for some time now......it will be easy to tell in that business how close the clones perform to there "alike".....so far there to young to be tried but time will tell......as Ike said, and the arguement in the rodeo business.....if there up bringing and life experiences differ, how much will it affect there outcome ....im with Ike on this one. This is somewhat similar to same parent pups......I would assume?