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Yes Black mountain you are misunderstood than you for skipping 4 pages of comments and replying to one off the subject comment. I called out one guy for multiple female lions under the guise of just providing for his family. My point was he has been hounding long enough to know better than to dump his dogs on the first female track he comes across because his hunter does not know the difference and it will make him a quick buck. Now moving on from there. Im glad the the hound community as a whole is not as ignorant as some of the guys posting on this forum, I do however think it is funny that the majhority of the guys defending him are in reality defending their own female killing. Why do they do they lash out on here at me for pointing them out? because they are ashamed of what they are doing... So my mission is accomplished. Now back to dave, I know you have called around trying to get my number, I know you talked to my father in law. I also know how the conversation went. Im glad you were humbled. Now I wil be more than happy to get out from behind this computer as you pointed out and into a face to face discussion with you at the next nubgha field trial. In fact since I will not be posting on this thread again I would love dearly to meet all of you at the next NUBGHA field trial to have a friendly conversation about this. I think you will find your support dwindled when forced to defend your actions in front of your peers. So say what you want about me being green but be warned if we keep this over harvesting of females up, the antis will eventually have them put on the endangered species list, or we wil kill them out. It is unsustainable and you know it.

Nice comments on this thread. Im always amazed how hunters that "don't know the diferance between an 80lb female and a booner tom" somehow have the knowledge to tell if a track is runable or not....Hmmmm.

Its all about the money.....

This topic is awesome. I love it. I remember some years back when Bruce Kennedy of the old "Shade Tree" had a houndsmen BBQ down by Tucson I believe. I couldn't make the BBQ but I remember everyone saying that they had a big time. If we were to have a BBQ with all of the hooligans on this forum we would need to bring a boxing ring instead of a few coolers of beers, some cigars, and some guitars and singin.

We should start a thread called "wife beaters" and post every little bit of personal information about the wife beating houndsmen out there.

What is the difference between a vacuum cleaner and (some) houndsmen? It is easier to get the dirtbag off of the vacuum cleaner.

Arroyo wrote:What is the difference between a vacuum cleaner and (some) houndsmen? It is easier to get the dirtbag off of the vacuum cleaner.

This has my vote for quote of the year so far.

Catch and posse

So if it is legal does that automatically make it RIGHT???? and Yes this is the land of FREE that is why Timothy can say these things and also most of these rights you talk about are not rights they are priveleges and they can be lost.

No body is saying a law has broken. But we do need to police ouselves at least some. The F&G are more interested in deer and elk then lions. If we anialate the lion like deer and elk hunters want us to the repercussion could just like california, oregon , and wash. every one just be responsible and respect the game

I do get a kick out of the excuses people can come up with to justify shooting females and kittens.

1. I needed to so i could train my pups
2. It was my first cat( this means your not happy with it either, and already have plans of another hitting the dirt.)
3. Money???? to feed the family??? ( so how much did you spend on that new pickup, atv, tracks,snow mobile, aluminum box , and so on

Sorry every one I had to jump in on the fun too!

In theory I think that some of you are right, the legal right thing in theory sounds good but sure is a shitty mindset. Catch, I would love to see some of those cases where anything on here could be close to harassment and a felony, stupidest post of em all.

I assure you all that my dogs have not seen a female die nor have I and its certainly not for a lack of chances. I drew a Wasatch west tag a couple years ago and caught a LOT of lions and never pulled the trigger.

AS far as Larry getting his feelers hurt over criticizing someones livelihood, if you choose to make your living off a public resource then I think you should expect to be in the spot light. Moreover, if your tasking part in mismanagement you should count on it.
Its funny how most here would be embarrassed to live off of government funds/ tax dollars or welfare and yet many of you are thrilled to make dollars off of a resource that we all pay for.

At the end of the day I have to agree with Devin on this one that nothing will stop the short sighted and greedy, I just enjoy the argument despite hating the topic.

Get to your rack meetings and call all the board members make sure that your voice is heard and that you represent houndsmen in a positive light.

If all mankind minus one were of one opinion and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that person then he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.

Catch wrote:If all mankind minus one were of one opinion and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that person then he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.

I see you are smoking the good stuff again.

Here are the Utah kill numbers as an average for across the state.

2007
291 cougars killed with 40.4% being females

2008
282 cougars killed with 40.8% being females

2009
325 cougars killed with 41% being females

I cant imagine any biologist/herdsman would say that is sound management...
We might be able to do this for a certain amount of time but eventually we CANNOT sustain that type of harvest.

Houndem, You say your area can sustain females harvest. I find that hard to believe but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I watched this year as "THE" outfitter ran out of lions to kill in his usual stomping grounds and sent his posse into the areas we hunt and without discrimination killed several females there. Legally he absolutely has the right, but I assure you we can only sustain that for so long. I hope for your sake it doesn't happen in your neck of the woods.

walker83 wrote:Here are the Utah kill numbers as an average for across the state.

2007
291 cougars killed with 40.4% being females

2008
282 cougars killed with 40.8% being females

2009
325 cougars killed with 41% being females

Utah managers and biologists have long utilized the 60/40 split by saying 40 percent female take on lions or bears is acceptable! Be careful what you wish for because many on here are starting to sound like anti-hunters, give up the female harvest and the state will take it with government hunters, then what is to stop others from ending the tom hunt?

[/quote]

Utah managers and biologists have long utilized the 60/40 split by saying 40 percent female take on lions or bears is acceptable! Be careful what you wish for because many on here are starting to sound like anti-hunters, give up the female harvest and the state will take it with government hunters, then what is to stop others from ending the tom hunt?[/quote]


I hear what you are saying Sackett, and again I think that there is some validity in what you are saying. I think that it is a fine line that we walk in questioning management practices and pushing for the ban of hunting. In a perfect world I would love to see the female harvest shut down completely. I realize that wont happen but I would settle for a reasonable sub quota - 10-20%.

In a state where we cant even manage our deer and elk herds(which we can get a pretty good count on) I cant imagine that they have it right on our lions.

Sackett wrote:Utah managers and biologists have long utilized the 60/40 split by saying 40 percent female take on lions or bears is acceptable! Be careful what you wish for because many on here are starting to sound like anti-hunters, give up the female harvest and the state will take it with government hunters, then what is to stop others from ending the tom hunt?

I think a more telling stat would be the average age of harvest. I know in WI the age is going to be MUCH less in public land dominated areas vs private areas. Young boars get pounded pretty hard making it much tougher to find nice boars in later years. It's basically a race to the bottom until you look around and say "HTF did we get here". It's usually the dumb ass in the mirror.

A similiar situation is the deer herd in WI. Now in areas we have plenty of stupid deer. In other areas it's a barren wasteland from wolves, hunters and tough winters. Some of these areas are in the same dang hunting unit. Our DNR will give out 2 FREE doe tags and as many more as you want to buy for $2. In some spots you can't find a deer. Doesn't make much sense to me. Likewise in other areas with plenty of deer, guys will BLAST the first spike/for that comes by even though they could fill the truck up with antlerless deer. Then bitch about not having any nice bucks. Now I'm not one bit against getting some venison for the freezer but at what point do you figure out that the mindset needs to change.

Lately a lot of you have been coming under fire for killing female mountain lions. Being one of those guys who likes to kill female lions here is a list of my favorite excuses for doing so. Keep in mind that these excuses are only to be used by those hunters who hunt in an area that has a low population density and not by those who hunt were there is a large number of cats.

1. I don’t know how to tell the difference between a tom and a female. (and its legal)

2. The hunter I am guiding wanted to shoot it when we got to the tree. ( I wish I knew how to tell it was female before I turned loose. I have only been hunting for 15 years)

3. I have been hunting this unit for weeks and this is the first track that I found. (and its legal)

4. I also believe that it is a good sound management practice to kill the only lion I can find in a unit. ( and its legal)

5. It is legal

6. I really don’t like mountain lions and want to see them become extinct. (and its legal)

7. I believe the management of the lions is up the other hunters who hunt the unit. (and its legal)

8. I am an awesome hunting guide. I would sooner kill the last lion in whole state then not fill the tag. ( I refuse to scout ahead to know if there are lions in the area)

9. If someone is willing to pay then I am willing to sell a hunt. ( and its legal)

10. My dogs are scared of the really big lions.

11. I like to get home as fast as I can because sometimes it gets really cold outside during the lion season.

12. I am only going to hunt this unit for this cat. If the hunters who normally hunt this area are doing their part refer to #7 all will be fine.

13. I am just an @#*hole

14. THE BEST ONE AND MOST PERSONAL TO ME. There are certain postmortem activities which I enjoy. Somehow they just seem more natural if it is a female.

So now men when these bad guys like Timothy start to give you a hard time you have an excuse.

LMAO, I love it coonhuntr! I feel like a idiot for even bringing all this up now!

Timothy,

All kidding and funny posts aside, you should not feel like an idiot for posting this. For some hunters outside of Utah, this might seem like some "over the top" stuff. Over 1600 views and 70+ responses, some of them heated.

That alone tells you a lot about the state of lion hunting here in Utah!!

I have heard that idea floated around before, posting a list of who is killing what. Accountability.

Things are spiraling down, and in some areas very quickly. And it's frustrating to many people, a lot of them who never come on this site. The fact that heated threads like this one are even happening shows the state of lion hunting in Utah is in a bad place and many of the serious hunters' patience is starting to wear thin.

So don't apologize for being angry, frustrated or lashing out. Your post was pretty mild to some things I've heard off line and suggestions some guys are throwing out.

We have hit a low point in lion hunting in this state and this thread is just more proof.
Where we go from here and how we handle things the next 5+ years will be critical.

I wish I could say I was optimistic. But one thing is for sure, whatever happens good or bad, it will be the hound guys who are responsible. The DWR, SFW, and everybody else are just spectators. The ball ain't in their hands! It's all on us.