BigGameHoundsmen.com

Bplott wrote:Sacket,
Its sure funny that all our high density elk units are also our high density bear units .......so its pretty obvious the bear population is not hurting the elk units....studies done by jordan peterson and hal black show that bears have ever little effect on fawn and calf survival.....

A person or group has to look at something before they can find it bplott. I haven't looked at the data for years, but our calf elk production in the Uinta Mountans was up above 55 calves per hundred head of cows while the calf production was down around 33 calves per 100 cows in the Book Cliffs during the same time period. Likewise, the bear population is many times higher in numbers in the Books than in the Uinta Mountains. Now that doesn't mean much because it doesn't prove that the bears are removing move calves in the Books than the Uintas. A study has to be focused and open to predation studies before they show much, and too many of the modern day biologists just accept predators as part of the package and write them off as not a limiting factor.

There have been comments made in these post about range conditions yet we have spent more money on range improvement in recent years than all the years in the past. Controlled burns would help in some areas but DWR doesn't have control over that, rather the BLM or Forest Service. And control burns cost money and have risks, and somebody has to pay for them. Who is gonna do that the Utah Houndsmen Association? SFW? Obama?

That study done in Idaho clearly showed they had trapped 75 bears and moved them across the state and the calf production jumped the following year from 20 calves per 100 to 61, and as the bears moved back in and repopulated that area the calf production was reduced back down near the twenty it had had before the predator control. Those biologists determined that elk calves are more subject to predation by bears because elk clump up in herds on the calving grounds and when a bear finds them it's kind of like a coon in your sweet corn patch bplott.

Now I'm not preaching about harvesting bears to save elk, nor am I saying we need to kill more lions to save deer, but to make comments that predation isn't real is a false assumption and ideology. What I find sad is modern day studies look more at production and cub survival than the interactions of the predator/prey species. Bottom line is there are just too many things picking at our deer herds, between the lions, bears, coyotes, eagles and man, which includes vehicles and guns. There are other factors such as habitat and weather, but to not acknowledge the predator/prey relationship is like hiding your head in the sand...........

I did not bother to read Hal Black's bear study because they gave those bears human names rather than numbers and because after ten years they didn't show proof of any depredation from bears other than the one my buddy ran down for ADC.

Now having said all that understand that I would support a limit to killing female lions and bears, but i don't believe for one minute that the DWR and ADC will not continue removing problem animals. Furthermore I don't support turning hunters into criminals because they can't determine whether the lion sis a female or the bear is a sow as I see that as an increase in animal rights and a devaluing of our species. I don't hunt elk or deer anymore and so it would not bother me if deer hunting goes into further limits to save deer for my lions to eat. We have further issues in the Basin because of the Tribe, as they can and do manage their own wildlife. They have far fewer controls on them hunting anything from lions to deer than state hunters, and there was a time when they could go pick up four either sex tags for free, use them, then go get four more. So don't ever think I haven't watched and listened over my lifetime to the issues facing hunters in the Uintah Basin, but many o f those issues neither you, nor I, nor DWR has any control over.

To lighten the mood on this post a little, I think Mr. Abbot is Phillip from Survivor!

Sacket, you are right. For anyone to say lions dont affect deer would just ruin any credibility we have. A true statment right now would be that lions are at a level that they are not affecting the populations anymore. We could increase the lion numbers and realistically the deer hunting would not be affected. How much of a increase, I do not know. I think the deer problem can not be blamed on one spcific thing, some areas it is humans, all areas its coyotes, some areas it is habitat, weather, vehicles....

who the hell is this guy the kano or simmons of some rinky dink am radio show what a profesional PUD does anyone remember where simmons ended up my guess is abbott is the same class of individual

Tony,

First of all, I want to say for as long as I have known you , which has only been 12-15yrs, you have never done anything for FREE!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: And thanks for the job offer but I am not looking, but I am glad to help your traffic and participation level on the site so I will continue to help you at NO charge of course, because that is the kind of guy I am. (Close Quote)

The kind of guy you are has became obvious to everyone that has read these posts for the last few days. I would be embarresed if I were you by the way I have represented myself and tried to mislead people into believing I am something that I am not. In my opionion pleople like you will never change and it is always about the SHOCK AND AWE factor when the Smoke and Mirror Factor catches up with you. Ever since you were with the Mule Deer Foundation the SFW and Christiansen Arms and Booking hunts and even Exfuze and Fusion and now your drop in the pool of a radio show. If anyone really wants to know what kind of a guy you really are, just have them go buy your book called The Hunters I.Q. and see what this guy is really all about. Quit claiming to be something for wildlife that you are NOT quit using wildlife as a stepping stone. I wish you the best of luck in your future endevors, but if you expect respect from others GIVE IT and quit shitting on others to try to get yourself to the next level you will need those people some day.

Thanks

Kevin Burgess

I am as far away from utah as possible, but had to read this. this guy is a dick head. don't know if he nows much about wildlife but deffinetly doesn't no shit about life in general. where i come from any public figure with a mouth like that would no longer be a public figure. Hope you utah boys get it figured out. good luck

for a guy who has had his say and doesn't care what our dinky little site has to say he sure signs in often to check
what wrong tony you suddenly decide you didn't want any one seeing those opinions and views you felt so strongly about you had to result to childish name calling?

Well I've never hunted in Utah nor do I claim to know about your populations on the deer or cougar but it is obvious as an outsider looking in what has happened here. I've never heard of this radio show and from the looks of it nor has half the people posting on here. But after a 5 page thread everyone now knows who Tony Abbot is and will now be listening to his show on the 7th. Not cause we like him or even have an interest to what he has to say but simply to see him fall and eat his words, if that even happens. If that happens or not I can not say but what I will say is that his radio show will spike in ratings that night from all the free publicity that has just happened on this site. And what a better way to get it than to come on a well known houndsmen site and make a bunch of rude statements towards the men, women and youth who support this site and the future of our hound hunting. Then to offer free female cat hunts? Just another way to get us all fired up to listen to his show to see if he will really do it or not.
And due to the fact that us houndsmen are a smaller population than most other hunting out there, all the complaining in the world won't hurt his show but us now tunning in to see what's going to come out of his mouth next will do nothing but improve his ratings and his listening population. Unfortunately bad publicity is sometimes the best and I honestly believe this is the approach he used to get it. And from reading the posts.............. he might have succeeded. This to me looks like a typical media stunt when a cerleberty has been forgotten by the public. They get themselves out there for everyone to see then do something that outrages the public. In return the public then starts paying attention to them seeing if they will keep going in a downward spiral or recoupe from their mistakes. Either way it is a good ploy to get public attention and have one's ratings go up and name noticed.
Or I could be reading this completely wrong and just wasted the last 10 minutes blowing smoke out of my A$$.

Sackett wrote:Sorry but I don't buy any of that crap about habitat, just don't wash with me. In my opinion, if we shut down the deer hunt in the Book Cliffs and poisoned every bear and coyote on the range like was done in the study, had government trappers run down and kill every adult lion and kitten they could catch, in the same time period history would repeat itself again and the deer numbers would boom, no doubt in my mine!

Sackett wrote:Now I'm not preaching about harvesting bears to save elk, nor am I saying we need to kill more lions to save deer.

Sackett wrote:There are other factors such as habitat

Im confused one minute you say one thing the next you say something different make up your mind all ready.

Predators can effect our populations but I don't think it is as big a problem as most think.

Sackett wrote:What was most interesting to me was how many dead calves we found throughout September with bears on them. Best I can remember we found eight different dead calves that were all killed by bears.

How do you know they were killed by the bear and not by other factors Bears are scavengers. Not saying they wont kill but if you have some secret of knowing what happened while you were elsewhere I would like to know.

Sackett wrote:There have been comments made in these post about range conditions yet we have spent more money on range improvement in recent years than all the years in the past.

The problem being recent years it takes time.

http://westinstenv.org/wibio/2010/01/20 ... fic-fraud/

The Kaibab was established as a Forest Reserve in 1893 and in 1906 was designated as the Grand Canyon National Game Preserve by President Theodore Roosevelt. Today, the southern end of the plateau is in Grand Canyon National Park, while the rest of the area is managed by the U.S. Forest Service. When the Kaibab was declared a game preserve in 1906, hunting was prohibited and the federal government began an extensive predator control program. Between 1907 and 1923, an average of 40 mountain lions, 176 coyotes, 7 bobcats, and 1 wolf were killed each year. In all, only 30 wolves were ever killed by government agents on the Kaibab. Instead, the main predators were mountain lions and coyotes. The Forest Service also reduced the number of livestock permitted to graze the plateau.

In response to those measures, the mule deer herd irrupted from around 4,000 animals in 1906 to an estimated 100,000 head in 1924. As might be expected, the growing deer population severely overgrazed both the summer and winter ranges. This lead to a number of studies and reports, as well as a dispute between the federal government and the state of Arizona. In short, the Forest Service said that the deer herd needed to be reduced to prevent further range damage but the state refused to open the area to hunting. In response, the federal government claimed that it could kill deer on the Kaibab to protect habitat without a state permit. Needless to say, Arizona objected and the ensuing legal battle made it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
(just imagine had there been lots of black bears in the mix)

http://www.extension.org/pages/8573/black-bear-overview

Bears

Black and grizzly bears prey on livestock. Black bears usually kill by biting the neck or by slapping the victim. Torn, mauled, and mutilated carcasses are characteristic of bear attacks. Often, the bear will eat the udders of female prey, possibly to obtain milk. The victim usually is opened ventrally and the heart and liver are consumed (Bowns and Wade 1980). The intestines are often spread out around the kill site, and the animal may be partially skinned while the carcass is fed upon. Smaller livestock such as sheep and goats may be consumed almost entirely, and only the rumen, skin, and large bones left. Feces are generally found within the kill area, and a bed-ding site is often found nearby. Bears use their feet while feeding so they do not slide the prey around as do coyotes. If the kill is made in the open, it may be moved to a more secluded spot.

We had a vet stop by and examine one of he calves that was killed in a meadow. He claimed the calf had a broken neck and must have been killed by a car on that dirt road? Ike and I laughed and spoke to our ADC guy who also laughed and claimed, doesn't he know that bears often slap those calves and break their necks?

And contrary to your comments I don't flip flop on my ideology about predators..... Predators have the greatest impact on the prey species and habitat and the elements come in second place.......

Sacket,
You seem like a highly intellegent fellow beings you hang around ike!!! next I'm sure your going to try and explain to us that bears and lion kill more deer and elk then man does in his automobiles every year!! Then go ahead and explain to us about those oil field guys going 50mph + down those oilfield dirt roads are stoping for every deer or elk that happens to be in the road!!!

Bplott wrote:Sacket,
You seem like a highly intellegent fellow beings you hang around ike!!! next I'm sure your going to try and explain to us that bears and lion kill more deer and elk then man does in his automobiles every year!! Then go ahead and explain to us about those oil field guys going 50mph + down those oilfield dirt roads are stoping for every deer or elk that happens to be in the road!!!

I wouldn't attempt to explain anything to you because it would fall on deaf ears! And Ike reads this board some Jason and will remember any smart ass remarks you make toward him. If you want to get personal I'll forward your comments to Ike......he and I both agree that you are half a bubble off plumb.....

Sackett,
O please don't tell Ike on me!!!
I might be half a bubble out of plumb but at least I will stand up for hound hunting here in utah, what have you done to help our sport here in utah??? O wait you are tring to help but I'm just not sure how.

Bplott wrote:Sackett,
O please don't tell Ike on me!!!
I might be half a bubble out of plumb but at least I will stand up for hound hunting here in utah, what have you done to help our sport here in utah??? O wait you are tring to help but I'm just not sure how.

I said heaven help us if dawg represented houndsmen because all he seems to want to do is joke and seldom if ever shows a serious side; however, you wouldn't hold a candle to dawg in a discussion with Tony Abbott on a radio show. And I'm not here to represent the houndsmen but to defend my buddy........