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Anytime you burn a lot of powder behind a reasonbly heavy bullet you will get recoil, and case design with the sharp shoulder can also enhance the effect of this recoil. I am not overly recoil shy, and I often develop loads and sight in rifles for adventure seeking friend who have the cash to take that long dang flight to Joeburg, South Africa and go shoot a bunch of critters. Routingly they seem to choose the 375 H&H a favorite of mine, 416 rigby also a fine weapeon and the 458 Lott ( OUch!!)

A little of this goes a long way.

I like to shoot a bunch so I prefer milder kicking weapons for most of my shooting.

You will like that 25 WSSM. I hunted with several guys last season using them and they do a fine job, and very pleasant and accurate. I used the 257 Weatherby for many years, and still love it, as well as my 25-06 Ackley Improved. but one of the neatest little 25's is still the little 250-3000 in the old style Savage 99. What a neat little saddle gun and much more effective than that little bitty case looks like.

Mike,
We also do alot of shooting. You'll get along with my father-in-law just great. You got me going on the 25-06 Ackley, good round without much recoil. I think my favorite south texas deer gun is the 250-3000 Ackley. I've been shooting this round a bunch and love the hell out of it. We each have a gun chambered in that caliber. One a win. model 70 and one a rem. model 700. Both wearing a Mc Millen barrel. You can bet they are in the truck throughout most of the deer season. We also have a 250-3000 in the model 99. It's going to be my sons gun in the next year or two.

The place where I think most people go wrong is shooting too much gun for them. Not all people can handle the recoil of say even a 30-06(example). Some can handle alot and I'm not knocking the bigger guns. A person needs to know their limit. The key is shot PLACEMENT. I myself shoot a smaller caliber better and still have no problem getting game on the ground. We shoot almost everything in the neck and they don't move, less waisted meat also.

Shorty,

You dog you! Now you got me wanting another wildcat. I love the idea of the 250-3000AI.

PO Ackely revered the 257 Roberts AI, But said the 250 Savage Improved was a wonder of efficientcy. Many vermint hunters have found the 22-250 Ackely Improved based on that case the equal of the Swift without the associated case problems.

I had one of the Classic series Remington 700's in 250-3000 when it came out I made some incredible shots on mule deer, white tail and coyotes with the standard round. Being the gun trading fool I use to be I let this slip away with it's wonderful short stiff action.

Keep scouring those pawn shops shorty maybe you can fine me a good candidate for that round while you are on the road.

Yes in reality the gunwriters of America since the passing of the sensible breed like Jack O'Conner, Warren Page, Les Bowman and such have revved the shooting public up into thinking they need a 300 Ultr Mag to kill a 150 or 200 pound deer that isn't really put together any stouter than a fit human.

Think about it how would you feel about your life insurance if you knew Joe Hunter was out there with a well sighted in measaly little 243 or somthing a scant 200 yards away after your hide? Why that gun is only fit for varmints to kill a great big old boy like me you need a 300 Super Dooper Hootblammer Magnum!

My
Dad thought a 30-06 was needlessly powerful for deer and should be reserved for elk or bigger bear. He killed many trophy bucks and won many a big buck contest. His gun of choice? A Remington 722 in 244 Remington ( now called 6MM Remington) and a 4 power Weaver Scope.

While doing a survey for the Boone and Crockett Club the other day many questions were asked concerning ethical hunting, fair chase, high fence, and ultra high tech accesories. We don't want to get to the place where we are all shooting out of a blind over a solid rest with a 12 power rangefinding scope, and lazer range compensation. Because that loses the pioneer concept of of fair chase and the motive of hunting as a sport and turns it into a matter of animal assasination or simply killing.

Military snipers are highly trained markman and use the latest in technology to kill the enemy. They are not hunting they are only defending themselves if they are spotted they are in the killing business but I don't want my hunting to get to that point. Maybe that's why a lot of guys are going back to archery and muzzleloaders. I hope so.

Mike,
When I come out your way in a couple weeks I'll bring one of those 250-3000 Ackley's. You can shoot it and see what you think of it. I'll keep my eyes open for you a gun that will suite you.
I just got back from Dan's and had a good time. Loved your training method. Works great!

Hand grenades and RPG's are usually adequate. If those are unavailable,450 marlin works well.

Mike Leonard wrote:Shorty,

You dog you! Now you got me wanting another wildcat. I love the idea of the 250-3000AI.

PO Ackely revered the 257 Roberts AI, But said the 250 Savage Improved was a wonder of efficientcy. Many vermint hunters have found the 22-250 Ackely Improved based on that case the equal of the Swift without the associated case problems.

I had one of the Classic series Remington 700's in 250-3000 when it came out I made some incredible shots on mule deer, white tail and coyotes with the standard round. Being the gun trading fool I use to be I let this slip away with it's wonderful short stiff action.

Keep scouring those pawn shops shorty maybe you can fine me a good candidate for that round while you are on the road.

Yes in reality the gunwriters of America since the passing of the sensible breed like Jack O'Conner, Warren Page, Les Bowman and such have revved the shooting public up into thinking they need a 300 Ultr Mag to kill a 150 or 200 pound deer that isn't really put together any stouter than a fit human.

Think about it how would you feel about your life insurance if you knew Joe Hunter was out there with a well sighted in measaly little 243 or somthing a scant 200 yards away after your hide? Why that gun is only fit for varmints to kill a great big old boy like me you need a 300 Super Dooper Hootblammer Magnum!

My
Dad thought a 30-06 was needlessly powerful for deer and should be reserved for elk or bigger bear. He killed many trophy bucks and won many a big buck contest. His gun of choice? A Remington 722 in 244 Remington ( now called 6MM Remington) and a 4 power Weaver Scope.

While doing a survey for the Boone and Crockett Club the other day many questions were asked concerning ethical hunting, fair chase, high fence, and ultra high tech accesories. We don't want to get to the place where we are all shooting out of a blind over a solid rest with a 12 power rangefinding scope, and lazer range compensation. Because that loses the pioneer concept of of fair chase and the motive of hunting as a sport and turns it into a matter of animal assasination or simply killing.

Military snipers are highly trained markman and use the latest in technology to kill the enemy. They are not hunting they are only defending themselves if they are spotted they are in the killing business but I don't want my hunting to get to that point. Maybe that's why a lot of guys are going back to archery and muzzleloaders. I hope so.

Tool of choice is usually what your comfortable with. I do hunt long range for them high country animals like Mule Deer, Sheep ect. Elk hunt'n here is either a up close and personal or stretch'n it out like allot of places. And in doing so a lazer range finder is a must! If you don't know the range you absolutly should not be shooting. Then again I hunt high alpine and sitting in a blind over bait or a water hole is not in the cards and getting close my not be possible. As an archery hunter as well, I only do it to length'n my season not because of the challenge.

I use a 45/70 in a marlin guide gun. Of the guns listed I would say the 30-30 is the best. I have never killed a bear with a 30-30, simply because I have never owned one, but I have seen a truckload of bears killed with them or 32 Special by hunting partners. I killed several bears with a 270, and it does the job just fine, but a short carbine is a lot nicer to pack through the brush and I like a a lever action. Although I liked the pump 270 I had for followup shots on deer and elk, it was to long to be handy for bear hunting, and besides I can't recall ever needing a followup shot with it. With hounds downrange ballistics are just not really a factor, 100 feet would be a long shot at a treed bear and you should be a lot closer than that when your shooting one bayed up, so the only ballistics you really need to pay attention to are the ones at the muzzle.

Certainly in hounding for bear or hog you chances are very shorty and even for lion or cat a 150 foot shot on a ledge or such is pretty lengthy. The old 45-70 or newer 450 just another way to loaD A HOT 45-70 nothing it will do the older round won't or vice versa , just a way to get you to buy a new gun.
30-30 sorta like shaking hands with an old friend it will do anythign with proper bullets you need done. I have a freind who has taken out many a griz. wit the 30-30 over bayed up hounds. PUT THE PILL WHERE THE PAIN IS. And like Karamojo Bell the most famous elephant hunter of all times who killed thousands and was never injured with a caliber 275 Rigby which is a tad under our present 7mm 08. He knew where they lived and that is where he shot them. I mean the life of the body.

So a lot of gun talk although I love it is mute conversation. Rather it is simple physics. A projectile driven and a certain speed that will penatrate and expand to destroy surrounding tissue and vital organs.But I hate to boil it down to that. No much more like the ancient medicine man who claimed it was not the bullet of the double nitro rifle driven into the buffalo that killed it but rather the smoke that burned along side of the bullet when it entered the hide of the beast it destroyed it. Hmm?Don't know about that but certain weapons for instance my wonderful Springfield Sporter seem to be absolute termination for intended creatures, while other less loved but highly technical weapons seem to be more like an average tool from a plumber's truck when it comes to slaying a beast.

30-30 you wont regret

I'll take a 45-70 for bear but a 30-30 won't sell ya short...

If we are talking about shooting bears out of the tree,and I believe we are
to me there is only one choice and it has little to do with calibre!
I saw one other post where the 308 cal was mentioned,it is very effective,easy to find cartridges for if you are not a reloader,lotsa bullet weights and cheap too.The biggest factor though in my bear gun is that it breaks down and fits into a backback!To me the Thompson Contender is the only houndsmans choice,use what ever caliber you like after that.

Eric,

You sound like a bear killer.

I have little doubt that the 308 Win. is one of the least appreciated , and most mis-understood rounds by the general hunting public. Makes you wonder why such crazy reckless fools such as the polices and federal tactical teams and the US Military use it almost universaly? Crazy folks don"t seem to understand you need a 300 Ulta WHANGbANG lOUDEN BOOMER TO KILL A CRITTER.

MOST HUNTERS CAN"T HIT THEIR a$$ OH i MEAN THEIR BEHINDS WITH BOTH HANDS SO THEY MIGHT AS WELL MAKE A LOUD NOISE. The echoes give them somthing to listen to while they are making up their current excuse for misssing.Well the wind and the ground you know was sort of unlevel and then that damn Dave ran around there hollering, and my allergies have been kicking up, and I think my scope got knocked off too.

Don't get to et up about killing a bear. A 22 Colt Woodsmen in the hands of a real shot is a whole lot better than a 338 Win. Mag in the hands of a Liberal.LOL!

I've got a Browning Lever action in 358.....its not the most popular caliber but I've handloaded some Nosler Partition 225 grains in it and it does an outstanding job....as you now its basically a 308 necked up to 35 caliber. up to 150 yards it is devastating....not a lot of recoil, small compact lever action and deadly

Brew,

The 358 Winchester is without a doubt one of the most un appreciated cartridges ever. It is a marvel of effeciency, a real powerhouse at close to moderate range. Perfect for handy fast handling woods rifles and plenty of punch for moose and elk and bears as long as you don't try to make a beanfield rifle out of it.

I have a freind who was a bush pilot in Alaska for many years. He has a 99 Savage in 358 Win. He said it never let him down on moose, black bear were duck soup with it, and he even knocked a few brownies off with it. I asked him if he would consider selling it to me. He laughed and said surely you are kidding?

The best black bear cartridge discussed thus far. I would place the new 338 Federal right up there with it as a head to head rival for the bestest black bear medicine ever.

Mike, I hear what your sayin about the 358....my uncle had a Ruger #1 chambered in it and that is where I got my love for it. Shot a couple of nice muley bucks with his and none ever knew what hit them. all got knocked right over. as you said it will never be a beanfield rifle but for close range work it is outstanding. Not many people know about it, not "sexy" enough for people who want a magnum belt on the cartridge. I heard that Browning was going to offer it again in the BLR but it had to be ordered as most sporting goods stores won't carry it. I got mine many years back from a guy who was selling it with the reloading dies and a couple boxes of bullets for $400. The rifle was in excellent shape, no scratches, blueing was great. I saw one for sale in the used gun rack at our local Cablea's that was all beat up and they wanted $849 for it....thought about buying it just to have it. Anyway was down your way a couple years back as my buddy had a New Mexico elk tag and we drove down to his brothers house there to hunt. First time I had ever been down that way...had a ball, real cool country. Good luck with the hunting.
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