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I think Lions are caught on the ground for other reasons. Like there just dicks and would rather fight then run and tree. I would think everyone on this thread that hunts the brush could call there dogs jumped by voice and just watching the gps. With the dogs I hunt I can tell you if there about to catch it or there about to tree it. And Im sure Mark, Andy, David could do the same. Caught on the ground under 5 minutes maybe one or two I could think of and I couldnt promise it.

Good post Duane. I can only recall catching one bob on the ground in five, believe it was more like three. In a brushy, steep piece of ground, thought the dogs had made a very quick bad lose, did not hear any kind of bayup. A young dog only one barked enough to lead me to the catch, thought maybe she was hung up, very surprise all dogs chewing on critter. Have you ever thought maybe the reason your dogs tree the cats so fast is they are able to run a sight race in that open ground? Thanks for sharing your hunt here in Oregon. Do not know how much heads up running dogs are doing in the very brushy areas here, unable to see. Do know most of the times i see them in open ground they are running heads up on a tight jump. Have a hunter in central Oregon who got some dogs from me, he tells me in about three feet of powdered snow, few cat elude the dogs, his country is more open like Montana. He says when the snow get deep & the cats can/t run the blowdown in those pole patches his catch rate goes way up, as long as he can keep the cats out of the bluffs. Will give Dewey a plug, he called recently to tell me a three year old female he bought as a pup from an accidental cross. treed a couple cat in deep snow for him a couple weeks ago. Says she is silent on cold trail & not a lot of mouth on the jump, but did tree good with a good locate. He called me before buying & I told him to try one from Dewey. I suspect your cat would duck & dodge some if they had some cover to aid them. Yes I can tell when the dogs are running jumped in the brush. Al

I can guess at why.

dhostetler wrote:Then why do my dogs catch lions on the ground?

I have pictures from the previous owner of my now deceased walker of coons caught on the ground. I have heard your theory before but i tend to disagree. Treeing Walkers come out of the running walker line supposedly running walkers were bred not to catch however running walkers seem to be a favorite of coyote hunters and a lot of west coast bobcat hunters. Selective breeding got treeing into the running walker line, why can't the run to catch be also selective bred in? I have run numerous Plotts supposedly have a 300 year history of breeding to catch, why does the walker blood in my dogs do a lot better in catching than any Plott I seen running.

I think you are right "run to catch" is being bred in by selective breeding and out crossing.

I am guessing your dogs "catch" bears on the ground too. But whose choice was that? I am guessing it was the bears' choice.

I bet your dogs could catch a rank bull as well, if that is what you trained them for.

Those animals do not run like a fox. By comparison, a bobcat does.

My theory was my way of trying to understand why my dogs would never catch cats in areas where cats do not climb. When I acted on my theory to test it, I started catching cats to the point it became boring for me.

Until then, I had been a hard core Treeing walker man for longer than some guys reading this have been alive.

Don't go blowing up your tunnel if it works fine for you.

Do you coon hunt? If so, let me know when your dog catches one on the ground.

I have known of walkers that did. I have known of a great many more that did not.

Ps. I went back to my first post on this to try and pull it because I don't really feel the need to defend my position. (But it was already locked in)

If it does not help you, then reject it.
I am sure I can find a psychiatrist to help me through the pain of rejection.

Lions my dogs caught were not mean, just weird stuff like bailing out and getting caught before they could get up another tree etc. another time a 100 lb. lion was caught and killed by 6 dogs for no explanaible reason on an otherwise normal race.

David, no I don't coon hunt. An accasional coon is seen about 70 miles from me, otherwise huntable coon populations are about 300 miles from me. I don't really consider bayed bears as "caught" real bear dogs are defined by making bayed bears climb in my opinion. I agree that the majority of the hounds out there do not run to catch, I do however disagree with you that walkers as a whole are more pre disposed not to catch. I believe there are lines of walkers pre disposed to catch. There is also the common knowledge out there that walkers are hot nosed falsed tree dogs, which doesn't describe my walker blood either.

I sure wish I could chime in with some words of wisdom but I very rearly made it past the jump. The two times I did catch it was cause the cats didn't run stright and went to those tight circles. But there was at least 20 or 30 jumps that the tight circlying cats got away. So who knows what works here. Lord knows I don't have a clue yet. Haha

If a dog does not run game to catch its a cull! Plain and simple. Andy

Duane I will have to disagree on your thoughts of what a real bear dog is, been my experience when I hunted bear years ago that any time the dogs decided to really force a fight with the bear, some dog or dogs got killed or owner had a big vet bill. Here in this brushy cover have seen dogs that were good bay on a mean bear in open country, fluck out as bear dogs here. Some dogs never seem to know just where the bear was. Have seen dogs baying a brush patch when the bear had eased on. In my opinion the good bear dogs where the ones that bayed up close to the bear staying out of harms way. There have been hunters here who believed as you, but I could not have paid their vet bills. Most dogs here who use good judgement on baying bear still get caught after they get age on them. I owned a female that would bay a mean bear tight all day long by herself. My friend Tom Barnett, many times told me a hunter who did his job could kill any bear that needed killed, with bell. Al

Andy I will agree to Disagree and to agree with you. I try to match a dog with the opposite. Which might leave me with a non catcher or a non locater. But when your learning and observing from guys who catch over 150 cats a year its easy where a person might be influenced. I have my opinions and I share with whom some of my dogs came from and Vise Versa... I have dogs from all over but only looking for what someone aint producing. I have a few who can get it done on there own consistently. But not all.

This is in support of David's theory of dogs being genetically predisposed to catch or to not catch. I have coon hunted hard and continuously for 63 (of my 75 years) during 36 of those years I selected for fast track driving dogs. Yet I have seen only 2 dogs that regularly caught coon on the ground and those two made it look easy. Both were fast but did not seem to be faster than their pack mates. They did not catch coon way out in front of the others; they simply caught coons on the ground. What were all of the factors? I don't know. The only thing that makes sense to me is that one wanted to catch and the others did not. ????

al baldwin wrote:Duane I will have to disagree on your thoughts of what a real bear dog is, been my experience when I hunted bear years ago that any time the dogs decided to really force a fight with the bear, some dog or dogs got killed or owner had a big vet bill. Here in this brushy cover have seen dogs that were good bay on a mean bear in open country, fluck out as bear dogs here. Some dogs never seem to know just where the bear was. Have seen dogs baying a brush patch when the bear had eased on. In my opinion the good bear dogs where the ones that bayed up close to the bear staying out of harms way. There have been hunters here who believed as you, but I could not have paid their vet bills. Most dogs here who use good judgement on baying bear still get caught after they get age on them. I owned a female that would bay a mean bear tight all day long by herself. My friend Tom Barnett, many times told me a hunter who did his job could kill any bear that needed killed, with bell. Al

Al, I agree with you. A dog that gets killed by a bear is obviously is not a good bear dog because he got killed, though I did have a good bear dog once get killed by a bear at age 13, he was at the age where he was more like used to be good. It has been several years since I had a vet bill from bears. I also like more bayed bears than treed bears with a lot of vet bills. I was more or less trying to point out to David why I think bears on the ground are different than cats. I also think dogs can be good bear dogs and not be suicidal hair pullers. I agree 100% on your thoughts about the brush bayups vs. open country.

twist wrote:If a dog does not run game to catch its a cull! Plain and simple. Andy

Ok. So I am seriously trying to understand what you mean, following the thread. We know for sure a dog is running to catch when it catches something on the ground that did not stop on its own. How do we know it did not stop on its own? Well, at least once in a while it would obviously be caught in a place where it did not choose for itself. In other words, it would not have it's back protected, or would not be in a place of refuge that it chose for itself to stop in; like a tree.

So are you saying that any dog should be culled that does not prove it is running to catch by actually catching an animal that did not choose to stop?

I can't really beleive you would say that bexause it sounds like a judgement on your dogs. You would be saying that either they are running to catch but are to slow to actually catch, or that they are not running to catch, because the cats always make the choice to stop in a place of refuge.

I call a catch where ever the dog ends with the cat,tree, hole, cliff or ground. If ones dog does not trail the cat with intentions of catching I don't want it. Can't believe anyone else would either! All this over thinking on cat hunting is unbelievable to me learn your dog and learn the game you wish to tree or catch put your heart and soul into it and great things can happen. Andy

Let me know if this sounds like over thinking:

"If a dog is trying to catch something, at least once in a great while he should prove that by actually catching it, unless he is too slow or otherwise physically or mentally impaired."

I also wonder in heavy brush if you guys can tell for sure when one is jumped.

You have got to be kidding me!!!! That statement says alot about how little you know. Throw that garmin away and find some place to go hunt in the dark! Then get back to us in 6 months with your findings.