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Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:31 pm
by Rockcreek
Mr.pacojack wrote:BuckNAze wrote:If you guys dont mind me asking how much do you guys make from breeding? I know some dont make much but for those of you who sell your pups for say $500 or more. Is there a pretty good profit envolved in that? I know you have to spend money on food, shots, etc. But how much do you profit and how much do you spend on those items? Just curious thats all. Thanks.
You made a good point. Good hounds should not bred for profit
most of the good old houndsmen bred for themselfs(and that is the way it should be) and it was very difficult to get any of their breeding.
Much is lost in breeding for profit. Good hounds are bred from a long line of sucessfull hounds from sucessfull breeding. Most guys do NOT realize that one can NOT go without the other. PROVEN BLOODLINES AND PROVEN HOUNDS. That mean you have to hunt them to prove them,and not only hunt them but catch game with them, and then breed bloodlines to try and improve what you have.And you should always breed to better what you have, and that should be very good or you shouldn't be breeding them at all.
Breeding 2 hounds because they have good blood and SHOULD hunt good is B.S.
Timmie talks about a pyramid and being at the top of it, that is just greed and a want to be a famous breeder. The men at the top of his pryamid have taken years and years to get there on their own, with PROVEN STOCK, not on others shirttails. If his pyramid was true, all a guy would have to do is buy livestock from the top guy and breed them and he would be at the same level. Which is done, look at the Cameron dogs, But every one wants one dirrectly from Dale himself, which would put him in the middle of the pyramid.
In my oppinion the guys that have screwed up the hounds we have today the worst are the ones doing it for profit. Taking 2 dogs they may have spent alot of money on and breeding them together as unproven dogs and selling them for a high dollar. If this is what you really want to try, then these pups should be put in the hands of true hunter (not guys just taking nature hikes) at little or no charge and get some honest feed back on his breeding, then and only then maybe the next litter you could sell to get some of your money back. But lets be honest you will never get your money back from hound hunting. You have to do this for the love of the hounds and the hunt.
Another thing on breeding that many of the guys coming into this sport just buying dogs or pups should know is...
Just because you have the best blood and even if both parents are the best dog in the world, that doesn't mean you will get anything more than a pile of crap. I have seen many top dogs that could never reproduce their likeness.
3 things that will increase your odds of getting a good pup is
1. Proven bloodlines
2.Proven HUNTING PARENTS
3. Proven reproducers
The more money you spend on a pup does not mean it will be better, in fact it is a tactic used by sellers. Years ago my buddy and I did a little test, we spit a litter of pups, I ran a ad for these pups for $75 and he ran one for $250(20 years ago this was alot of money for a hound) the words on the ad were the very same. He sold out the second day I had not got one call.
Don't Get caught up in this high price pup B.S.
Great post bud, great post!
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:48 pm
by houndnhorse
I like the way you think Devin, I have been trying not to chime in on this one for some time. I agree a very talented salesman can sell a ton of pups, it happens every day. I asked to much for my puppies from the get go, but I am keeping them alot longer than most. If I see something that I don't like it doesn't leave my yard. I hear all the arguments about how this line and that line should cross perfectly, and then putting a big price tag on it, to recoop their money spent. Really, don't you think all this stuff has been tried before. If I were to do this for profit I wouldn't have turned down Hagar's littermate way back then, and I would have rode the Shelley name till the end. By the way, it wasn't for $1500.00 dollars. I wanted dogs just like the ones I have been exposed to, going to real hunters that can test them. If lightning strikes, hey I did it right. If it doesn't, then I'm just like every other guy that commits Full Cry adds to memory and argues to the end. Talk to guys that that were their boys, you might not like what you here, but it damn sure is the truth. "Dogs are like a checking account, if it isn't in there you can't get it out." My buddy Pat taught me that, and I think he's followed a good dog or two. Hell some of the blood from his dogs just may be running through old Hagar. Point is you don't know, those guys bred back and forth for decades and we are not privy to that information because we weren't there. Take care and happy hunting.
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:50 pm
by liontracker
Hey Buck... that's like asking a rancher how many head of cattle he has, or asking someone to see their income tax return, isn't it? LOL
Anyway it really doesn't matter in this case because the best a guy will do is pay for the feed and some fuel. I figured it out and to replace my income I would have to sell 80 of these so called high dollar pups per year. Now taking care of 10-12 litters per year is not my idea of fun. Not to even mention the 600-700 people a guy would have to deal with to sell those 80 pups. Then consider the wreck if some bitches didn't take or had complications. The bills really wouldn't get paid then. Mother Nature is a fickle woman.
Paco is right:
Mr.pacojack wrote:But lets be honest you will never get your money back from hound hunting. You have to do this for the love of the hounds and the hunt.
But this one:
Mr.pacojack wrote:Timmie talks about a pyramid and being at the top of it, that is just greed and a want to be a famous breeder. The men at the top of his pryamid have taken years and years to get there on their own, with PROVEN STOCK, not on others shirttails. If his pyramid was true, all a guy would have to do is buy livestock from the top guy and breed them and he would be at the same level. Which is done, look at the Cameron dogs, But every one wants one dirrectly from Dale himself, which would put him in the middle of the pyramid.
This one is a little twisted. Case in point is the performance horses that are doing all the winning. The owners did not by there stock at a Gov't. mustang round up...Did They? What would happen if they bred two of those together...top performance colts? Better than average chance, huh? As for DEL, little do you know, that I am one of only 2-3 guys that Del refers customers to. Because of this my Cameron pups are almost always sold before they are born...Just the way I like it! being a top breeder to me has nothing to do with greed, wannabe or jealousy...my goal is to produce top quality hounds...Period!
Mr.pacojack wrote:most of the good old houndsmen bred for themselfs(and that is the way it should be) and it was very difficult to get any of their breeding.
Paco you are a freekin' profit, boss. This right here, is in a nutshell, why most of the great strains from the past have died out or become lesser in quality.
And then there is this one:
Mr.pacojack wrote:The men at the top of his pryamid have taken years and years to get there on their own, with PROVEN STOCK, not on others shirttails.
I have been breeding stock for 42 years. Is that enough experience? 33 years on hunting dogs alone. Bill Green was only breeding for 10 yrs and look what he did. Was he just a wannabe, coattail rider?
For the life of me I could not figure out what was wrong with the "Posse". Then I saw some Pics and put faces with the names...crystal clear now.
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:12 pm
by liontracker
houndnhorse wrote:Really, don't you think all this stuff has been tried before.
When was the last time a Pure Grand Gascon Saintongeois stood on U.S. soil?
houndnhorse wrote:Point is you don't know, those guys bred back and forth for decades and we are not privy to that information because we weren't there.
I know one man that is privy to all that info and it has been very carefully documented and wrote down...very thorough and complete records.
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:32 pm
by Rockcreek
Better question: When was the last time a Pure Grand Gascon Saintongeois treed something (Something the owner didn't bring with them) on US Soil?
Take care and happy hunting.
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:36 pm
by liontracker
All summer long... up till 3 weeks ago!LOL....KIDS WILL PLAY!
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:48 pm
by Rockcreek
liontracker wrote:All summer long... up till 3 weeks ago!LOL....KIDS WILL PLAY!
And Old men will pay for retirement one way or another!LMAO!
Take care and happy hunting.
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:10 pm
by liontracker
Now then sonny...don't you worry none about my retirement...done taken care of already.
Greed, jealousy and money seem to be the root of the Posse's problem.
Anyone else notice that?
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:25 pm
by Rockcreek
liontracker wrote:Now then sonny...don't you worry none about my retirement...done taken care of already.
Greed, jealousy and money seem to be the root of the Posse's problem.
Anyone else notice that?
Alrighty then... LOL! I'm done posting about your BS er, GS hounds. Best of luck to you. If you ever want to go hunting, give me a ring.
Take care and happy retirement.
Mason
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:31 pm
by liontracker
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:32 pm
by bob baldwin jr
Liontracker I would say it is one of thier PRIORITIES
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:30 pm
by Brady Davis
This topic has given me many good laughs over the last couple days. I'm sigining off on it after this post...kind of like picking on the slow kids.
Mason~ You my friend clearly drink from the discipleship of Paco...we get it, you admire him and his program and will stand by it...Great, he clearly has a good one. But, to think that there is huge profits in dogs is a joke. Lastly, on your post you bring up how a GS or was it a BS has never treed anything here on US soil?! This is the problem with Americans....if it didn't happen here then by golly it didn't happen. Mason, have you ever seen Mt. Everest? If not, how do you know it exists? Have you ever seen the collesium in Rome? If not, how do you know it's not a crock? Have you ever seen a GS cold trail a Leopard in the hot dirt on a 3 day old track? If not, it MUST be a crock
Brilliant Mason, truly brilliant!
Mr. Paco~ I sure got a solid kick out of you saying that a guy shouldn't make any money on his dogs....sounds like a good socialist. Secondly, why are dogs any different from any other animals? Thirdly, from day one when I joined on this board you my friend have the biggest "dog jockey" sticker on your forehead. You always have pups, started dogs and finished dogs for sale...a bit of an online auction yard at your house eh?! To tell me you have only ever broke dead even on your dogs is a load of s*it and we all know it. So, you keep peddling your dogs, mocking what you've never seen and branding you arms...guys like Mason will follow with the utmost of dilligence.
If y'all don't wanna spend more money on pups then don't. Let us crackheads spend our money on lines we beleive to be good and you guys go out and do your thing...it's a big ole world out there!
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:58 pm
by DerekE
"Branding your arm", that's funny.
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:18 pm
by houndnhorse
"When was the last time a Pure Grand Gascon Saintongeois stood on U.S. soil?"
If I was going to get a bloodhound, I would go talk to Mr. Woods formerly of the Florence prison. As far as my recollection goes, the $10,000 that he put up since the 70's or early 80's, none of those Euro hounds have ever claimed that prize. And yes they were on American soil.
And your source, why isn't he/or she (politically correct) chiming in on this deal. Cause I'd love to hear it.
Don't go banking on one mans word, I promise you I would not say any of this if it was not thoroughly investigated, and have talked to the people that were there.
On a side note, it would be a great day when one of those GS's took a track away from "True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground bloodlines" Really buddy, with a title like that, didn't you expect a little razzing. Oh wait a minute that would be Marketing 101 wouldn't it?
Re: Price of pups
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:32 pm
by houndnhorse
And I have to say, and I'll shut up for the year. Pacojack, a dock jockey? He runs a line of Walkers he believes in, and is buying pups and giving them a chance to be better than what is in his yard. He sells what he believes to be good dogs, but not what he is looking for. Read between the lines. We need more of him. And tell me Devin, if I buy you one of these GS's, will you give it back to me trained, or just a food bill?
