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I once hunted with a female with a lot of nance in her. That female was hunted very hard in cat season, noticed on cold days when she was tired if the rig stop she would immediatley lay down on the box, soon as the rig moved, back up winded for cat scent. Yes she was a box dog & just an all around nice hound. Could not help but admire her dedication. i did not own her. Al Baldwin

dewy, it amazes me that when people that couldn't fill a thimble with knowledge continue to chum for agrivation. not only do you have a world of knowledge more, but the wisdom not to take the bait. i'm working hard at that, and will continue to do so. looking forward to reading more of your posts. take care

AMY??

Mr. Clay,

So, in your opinion this isn't a trait one can breed for??? We can breed for track speed, we can breed for treeing/locating, we can breed for open or tight mouth...why can't we breed a LINE of dogs that naturally are quick to open when they get scent? and isn't that a major component to being a strike dog? I welcome all the input I can get.

Newby,

We are only in the Second Generation of Rig Hounds.....give us another decade and about 3 more Generations, then maybe we will have a definitive answer for you.

My guess is that along with the Genetic Propensity for Rigging, the comfort level with riding on top of the Box is a Big consideration and will vary from Hound to Hound….at least it has been for Dad’s Hounds. Some of the Hounds just never relax on top and try to work the Wind for Scent.

Mr. Dewey and some of the Western Hunters who have been Rigging for lots longer than we have should be able to give more insight than we can.

In my observations,the line of catdogs that Al,Zip,JC Freeman,Dewey,Vaughn,and many others have contributed their dogs to for the breeding of strike dogs,has brought very high percentage results to the litters that are now born.Most make strike dogs[from the rig]and some make outstanding strike dogs.I also believe these dogs do not suit all houndsmen due to the fact they can start off quite mouthy up there,and can be ruined/or very set back with heavy methods of correction[especially corrected on top of the box].Also to my experciance's of trying many other breeds and strains from the top biggame hunters around the US,I'm still looking to find something that works as well for Bobcats.This is meant with sincerity[not sarcasmn],most of my good friends know that I'm open to try anything once and sometimes twice,I never really am satisfied,allways looking to improve mostly myself and my dog power.Like you guys I don't ever recall thinking I was over dogged[with ability,not numbers of dogs]for the task at hand.I usually allways analize and think they could of done better on this or that part of a race,and once in awhile the whole blooming thing!!As far as strike dogs go,I have to agree they are definately born,not made.

Tim,
So, I'm hearing you say that you do believe the propensity to be a good rig dog can be selectively bred for??? How exactly would you breed for that trait?

Mr. Clay, my dogs are very comfortable on the rig...I start messing with them young, I've seen them strik everything from Moose to coons and in different regions, I believe they even struck cat, but didn't have a check dog, so I didn't encourage them. However, here in MT in every season, I have not had what I call a real strike except for pups sight striking off game and then I let them down to correct like any other trash breaking...I've had wimpers and chirps, but never been able to confirm a cat or lion track.

Thanks TIM for the compliment, the first natural box dog I owned was the grandmother to my skinner male, I had some blood in her from the early sixties. But must say had never seen anything I ever owned before that boxed tracks the way she did. I need to give most of the credit to hunters like Sam Faulk & Willis Sutton who had brought the House blood to oregon. Chief, Clint, & etc. Oh i had some dogs that boxed some before her, but at a young age she started boxing tracks, that made me think she was trashing. Not telling you that alone she could catch some of these running cats, but her strikeing, trailing & treeing was sure a nice compliment to what I had. The blood added thru Mckenzie River Hunter that sired skinner seemed to give more track speed & hussle & was very easy to train. So I guess if I was looking to produce box dogs i would try house & finley river lines that were proven box dogs. If that helps anyone your welcome. Just wanted to give credit to those local hunters who deserved it. Al

Newby: We have dogs as Tim said that most of the litter make strike dogs. Roland Wilson and I were the first people that I know of that started hunting cat from the rig. Most of our bear dogs would not rig cat even thou they were great rig dogs on bear.We had to use dogs that were not good bear dogs but prefer cats. Ridding up there is one good thing to look for, being quick to open is another. The young dogs that make good rig dogs open on off game first. I never shock them for that, opening on off game. If they are ready to break on off game put them down them correct them. Good luck Dewey

Newby, to answer your question on has the strain I am breeding been used as strike dogs and the answer would be yes. I have a couple young dogs that live to ride the box here and one that loves the box so much that she sleeps on it most warm days but have never had them strike from the box dont know if its the dog, me or lack of scent. They will ride it like they know what to do checking the air and going side so side but they are sure silent up there. Andy

Al and Dewey are some of my mentors on breeding and many other things.But as Dewey stated--when they are ready to break on off game!!This was the answer within the answer,just like on the ground[walk hunting/free casting]IMO you shouldn't bust a pup for any off game until they KNOW ABSOLUTLEY what GOOD GAME is regardless of the situation,because most of the time if we have done our ground work at home with these young dogs it's fairly easy to call them off[I always don't due this in time,but theoretically it works].This is esecially true to line of dogs I mentioned in the above post bred by the guys I listed.My Suzie [like most of her litter]is the easiest dog I've owned to date to keep clean and straight,for oneI don't bounce her around from one game to another,for two she lived at Al's and JC Freemans until she was about 15 monmths old,the last reason was Dewey insisted I wear a shock collar along with her when I was first getting her going--HAHAHAHA.She's had her flaws but has taught me a bunch about catching cat and how to handle a dog with minimal effort for maximum results.Then came my Bozo[Dewey bred running dog]that was on the other end of the spectrum on starting[ran everything with a pulse with only permission for a cat with a short tail]this took a considerable amount of patience,time,effort,did I say patience.But when I got all his ambition directed toward a bobcat that's all he has on his mind,he never smells a female when we start hunting,and has lost his passion for it seems anything else except cat.He started rigging cat[and everything else]at 6 months old,started tracks in front[once in awhile]of my other dogs and even a few in front of Dewey's[9 other good catdogs]this not bragging on him,I'm trying to paint a picture for you so you can see that in and amongst all these good times there were plenty of bad.One time when he was 10 months old he rigged a cold track with Suzie,I let her down,she gave tail started moving out,I let him down he opened sold out,I dumped the remaining dogs they trailed a good bit down to a road and were trying to find where the cat left the road[it was warm and dry]during this I seen him get flighty a couple of timesSuzie and Minnie got it off the road,they went back to work,they jumped,caught the cat.After leaving the tree and heading back to truck[about 400yds straight up hill]I returned to the truck with 3 dogs instead of 4.I asked my wife if she had seen Bozo,she replied no.The gps showed him back 3/4 of amile away back where the loose was on the roadwhen I reached there he had sold out of ther and was nearly a mile away[jumped]with something bigger,darker and stinkier than I run,perfect time to do some training on trash breaking.Thankfull for tri tronics.He gotthe gest of that session off game is off limits,but going back and grabbing the second track is ok as long as it a cat,as he has done this several times this year at well under 2 years of age[d.o.b6/25/10].Newby if your dogs are comfortable on top and striking trash you are on you way to striking a cat with them dogs.They may or may not be top strike dogs for cat,but they will definatly better than not having rig dogs.25 miles is nothing,some areas of the cascades and days when game has not moved we have covered 2-3 times that with vetran rig dogs to get a strike thats trailable or at all.Most days in the coast range here you can strike and run cat,with good rig dogs that'll cold trail and move a track.I was down in south east desert the last weekend of season and these dogs could strike cat out of the rig in5-9degree weather,were the cat had not croosed the road and I would not have seen due to distance or no snow on that paticular piece of ground.It takes agood bit of culturing on these dogs to make them efficient rig dogs that produce results,it's worth the effort,keep at it I believe you'll be happy you did.Good evening to all.

So, say I have pups or young dogs that don't KNOW for sure what good game is but they're striking off game, what would you do? In my estimation I have 3 options here:
1. ignore them and keep driving
2. pet them up and encourage them or
3. let them down and correct them if they chase the off game

What would you do?

I don't want to get to deep into this thread. I will admit I haven't read much of it, some get a bit long winded.

Newby, If it was me and they were pups I would work at incouraging them. I feel you can break off trash later. If they are old no-way would I encourage it.

On the next note rigging is deffinatly bred into them. One statement was made that Butch wasn't a rig dog. Here is were we may see things different. Butch is from 30 years of selective breeding. I thing dad has focused on and proud of is rigging game. He started hunting before houndsmen thought about rigging. But once it was realized you could rig game and not road he began breeding for it. Almost every dog out of our stock are natural rig dogs. They will strike game going 60 mph down the highway. They naturally stike as pups, off game of course.

Now one thing I need to point out. In 40 years of breeding hounds, dad is a bear hunter. Our hounds are out of dogs selected for bear. I realize we are talking cats here. This is where some of us may differ on what we call a rig dog. In my eyes its a dog that will strike with the smallest amount of scent. Signaling to you hey let me down.
Remember I'm talking about strike from the rig, not how cold nosed they are.

Now I never hunted with Butch, I only bred him. His mother was not our line of dogs. But she was bought as a 8 week old pup, raised and trained by us. She also was the same line of hounds dad has been breeding, with the exception of the white cloud. I believe it was in her genetics to rig also. She was a natural rig that fit nicely into our pack.

I believe that some dogs have the genetics bred into them to naturally rig, but maybe that gene is hidden and needs to be brought out. Maybe you are over looking the trait and teaching them not to rig.These are my opinoins, I wished dad wasnt out of state he is good at explaining genetics.

Newby: Your are thinking that a good sign for a cat dog or it's hunter. If the dog is not ready to break ignore it. If is ready to break put it down and correct it. READY TO BREAK is the key. This my opinion How people deal with dogs is to the type of dog they hunt. My dogs are smart and soft dogs they will take very little abuse. They take very little abuse to train or break, no yelling ,only tone on shocking or slap with my hat. While some dogs it takes a lot to get there attention. If a dog knows what game it is to run and has been on bobcat a lot then when they trash they get corrected and put back on the right game. Others dogs have to to hammered from the start to keep them on good game. Bobcat bred dogs verses bear bred for grit. Tim and I with walk hunt our dogs together for training, we have free cast 14 dogs at a time with 6 being under 1 year and not run trash. If a pup gets flighty on trash they are toned. Basic training is tone training. This is where years of hunting and the shock collar on Tim comes in. I can tell when a dog is on off game most young hunter give there dogs to much lee way. I shock Tim ,he tones his pups. He was harder to train then his young dogs. Goes back to that smart thing. Here is a statement that make a lot of you guys thing . MY WILL NOT RUN LIONS. They have never been shock on them. They just run bobcats very little correction on anything. If they are ran with other dogs then I have to break them. They don,t run anything but bobcat because of how they are raised. I had a guy with a young dog this fall, it ran a deer I had to correct most of my dogs after that on deer because they have never been broke. I feel the way I raise and hunt my dogs they are never broke because they are never put in the place to trash. Most trashing comes the hunter not training and running off game with there dogs letting them do it. Newby if you ever get over here come spend a few days hunting with me. I don't let people run with me but will let them bring a dog to work with. Dewey...... Mic Your dogs are from the breeding that make box dogs. Butch just did not show interest in that. He has great drive and train ability. He was one of the fastest dogs on jump that I saw and put that in his pups. It was a good cross on the running dogs he just lacked in being a complete dog for me and as some of you know the only way I can afford the dogs is for them to pay for themselves, it was time to sell some to pay the bills. Dewey

I understand what you are saying Dewey. One thing I have learned this week is we all have different expectations and we have different views. This is what makes the world go round and round.

Maybe what I consider i rig dog is what you consider a box dog. This is fine. What you consider a bobcat dog is what I call a perfect bobcat dog. Probably what I call a cat dog some may call a cull, remember a cull is something you would not impliment into a breeding program.

We do hunt bear, we are not strickly cat hunters. So my expectations are different then a straight cat hunter. We don't have much problem with trash because our dogs are soft also. I swear if you cused at them you would hurt their feelings. And also I do have dogs that have never trashed. They never took the oppertunity and maybe I was able to set them up when they were young. But I'm not saying that I completly trust them or woulndn't put them past it.