BigGameHoundsmen.com

liontracker wrote:I'm the first to admit that looks aren't everything, but I'll take a blonde playboy girl type anyday...add some brains and desire and grit to the stellar conformation, well now that would really be something...at least in my opinion.

That is what I thought, little boys with a playboy just dreaming

No Devin it is not what you think, I actually married one!

liontracker wrote:No Devin it is not what you think, I actually married one!

Now that is sick. You do know you can go to jail for that shit don't you. I sure shouldn't be telling anyone about it.

liontracker wrote:

powderhorn wrote:The ability to recognize a dog by its bloodline or breed is not a complicated task. Anyone who has spent any time around hounds and knows what he's looking at can see the traits of a dog and recognize it's lineage to some extent.

Damn Devin, If I had only known, I could have saved myself considerable work and expense by just buying a couple from you...

If you were into hunting and catching game you would have!

The thing you guys are forgetting... Bill Green hunted! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Mr.pacojack wrote:I sure shouldn't be telling anyone about it.

No, that's right, you sure shouldn't. Otta here...I got a blonde calling my name.

Mr.pacojack wrote:You know what really amazes me with you guys is that you are so hung up on looks. You are basing everything on looks and building a breed on looks. .

I think you may be missing a key point in all of this.. Its an opportunity to look at the history of what we do.. where our dogs come from..
A man finds a dog that surpasses expectations and works game unlike anything he's seen.. Many people would leave well-enough alone. Say,"hot damn I'm a lucky man" and breed her to a good male hoping to get some more like her.. Instead we find a guy who sees the potential and asks questions like.. "Why" "How" & "Where did it all start??" was it some lucky guy 2 generations earlier who said "hot damn!" or was it deliberate? If deliberate, then how did they do it? And if they could do it.. why can't we? Ultimately: If so many Sugar Creek dogs were so highly respected, then how can one revive this line to produce more like it?

Who cares what they look like as long as they are catching big game and doing it time and time again?

-Again... Do we just leave well-enough alone and say "good 'nough, they can do it!" Or do we ask more questions.. Here's where the "Looks" question comes into play because when the questions were being asked and the backtrack ended.. it ended at Bill Green and the Lee Brothers.. and it ended with a little bit of vauge documentation and a whole lot of pictures.. if Harry O. Smith contributed great success of his dogs to Bill Green, then I'd say it is a huge step in the direction of backtracking.

I think you're right on.. who cares about looks.. but I think it is the respect of hounds and hopes to get back something that is all but lost in the SC line that brought it to this point.. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.. But when I see the Sugar Creek blood in my blue dog's pedigree.. I love getting on here and seeing what more I can find out about his roots... I love the answeres to the "why" "who" and "how".

powderhorn wrote:

Mr.pacojack wrote:You know what really amazes me with you guys is that you are so hung up on looks. You are basing everything on looks and building a breed on looks. .

I think you may be missing a key point in all of this.. Its an opportunity to look at the history of what we do.. where our dogs come from.. Take a look at LT.. And I'll give you my perspective..
A man finds a dog that surpasses expectations and works game unlike anything he's seen.. (For Tim it is pretty evident that the Sugar Creek line made this impression on him.) Many people would leave well-enough alone. Say,"hot damn I'm a lucky man" and breed her to a good male hoping to get some more like her.. Instead we find a guy who sees the potential and asks questions like.. "Why" "How" & "Where did it all start??" was it some lucky guy 2 generations earlier who said "hot damn!" or was it deliberate? If deliberate, then how did they do it? And if they could do it.. why can't we? Ultimately: If so many Sugar Creek dogs were so highly respected, then how can one revive this line to produce more like it?

Who cares what they look like as long as they are catching big game and doing it time and time again?

-Again... Do we just leave well-enough alone and say "good 'nough, they can do it!" Or do we ask more questions.. Here's where the "Looks" question comes into play because when the questions were being asked and the backtrack ended.. it ended at Bill Green and the Lee Brothers.. and it ended with a little bit of vauge documentation and a whole lot of pictures.. So the looks of the dogs identify a source.. a very plausible source for why old LT's and so many other's Sugar Creek Dogs do what they do. And if Harry O. Smith contributed great success of his dogs to Bill Green, then I'd say it is a huge step in the direction of backtracking that LT had hoped for..

I think you're right on.. who cares about looks.. but I think it is the respect of hounds and hopes to get back something that is all but lost in the SC line that brought LT to this point.. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.. But when I see the Sugar Creek blood in my blue dog's pedigree.. I love getting on here and seeing what more I can find out about his roots... I love the answeres to the "why" "who" and "how".

...spot on!

Here's a New Clip of Bill's Hounds From the DVD Avb from John and Bow Green ... I Ask John If I could Upload another Clip !!

How Fast can a Pack eat a Lion ??? lol

And Bill had some sewing to do !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FShaBzJUy9M

Damn Powderhorn, what are you...some kind of a mind reader? LOL That's pretty close!

What actually happened was this:

About 6 or 8 years ago I was sitting at Del Camerons kitchen table. I asked him what was his favorite hound of all time? he replied "why that would have to be Sugar Creek Rattler". (the other day he changed it to Thunder Chief, a littermate bro.) So unbeknowns to him I started looking. Two years went by as I spent over a thousand dollars on offspring reports and ped searches with the UKC. I talked with anyone and everyone that so much as even heard of a SC. In the end all that was left was an old female and and old 1/2 SC male, who was her 1/2 bro. I got the female and the male died from eating a rat full of poison. Then Along came African. Through his extreme dilligence, perseverence and personal sacrifice I ended up with 4 of his GGS pups. I noticed they looked a lot like some of the hounds in the old Green pics. Didn't make much difference to me as I was into the GGS as a pure bred. Then the Greens sent me a copy of Bill's old video. When I saw those GGS males come out of that pen, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt...well almost, that this was the missing link in reproducing Bill's hounds. All along I knew it must be a F1 or F2 hybrid cross he had made because he said he could do it again anytime and even better if he had to. Also because he made this strain so quickly...twice... once before the war and again after,it could not have been rocket science. Then when Harry O. Smith said the Green hounds were the best thing that happened to his Sugar Creeks, that added some serious weight to it all. The other day when lmorgan and bignblue asked for historical providence as evidence I looked a little closer and discovered that letter -G- after Panthers name in the old ped Steve posted. I already knew that Ann was a single registered dog of Bill's that Bill Harshman campained so hard for to get single registered because she was so superior he felt she would make a serious contribution to the breed. That letter -G- stands for Gascon...mark my words. Wouldn't it be too funny if the UKC still has a file with the original docs and maybe even pics of those white french hounds...Bill's GGS's?

Panther "G" Could very well Be !!!!

Plus this is UKCs History of the Bluetick Coonhound ...
And UKC is not refuring to the French add to the American Gascon in 1976..

HISTORY

It is most likely that the Bluetick is principally descended from the quick foxhounds of England with some introduction of the blood of various French hounds which were used for hunting big game. The French dogs were known as being very cold nosed. George Washington received five such French hounds from General Lafayette.

Blueticks were originally registered with UKC as English. In 1946, at the request of the Bluetick fanciers, UKC began registering Blueticks as a separate breed.


I'am sure UKC has all the Details, but to Get any Historical Data from UKC is like Pulling Teeth .. If its not in the Computer their sure not going to Dig in the Archives for it ..

Did the AKC take over?
Wouldn't they be digitally save by now?
Or in the process of?

Majestic Tree Hound wrote:some introduction of the blood of various French hounds

Majestic Tree Hound wrote:The French dogs were known as being very cold nosed. George Washington received five such French hounds from General Lafayette.

Not a distinction being made here in the official registry even concerning the Grand bleu de Gascon and Grand Gascon Saintongeois.

Now I am becoming a sceptisc and would like to actually see the historical providence of GW's hounds. Where might I find that?

Gifts Given to Press. have always been Documented ... And I would Guess it can be Found in the Library of Congress Web. Site .. with a little looking ..

This is what I was wondering, What was the Crosses the Lee Brothers had at the Time the Bill bought hounds from them ...

Then I found this Artical in Full Cry that Has a Very Indepth Combination of Crosses ..

But I had a Question of What was a "Corrigan Hound" and thru Searches only comes up as a Town in Texas .. Corrigan, Tx. .. Their are No other References other than that.. So the Redtick Hounds the Lees Used were "Corrigan Hounds" ??

I know that he ran into bloat with his line breeding but why drop it all and start over instead of outcrossing with the clearwater / miniskink he started back with? The only reason I can assume may have been his respect for Harry O. Smith and wanting to give someone else a shot at the pure SC line?? (Maybe this is a different topic, but I had been wondering about that.)

Majestic Tree Hound wrote:How Fast can a Pack eat a Lion ??? lol

And Bill had some sewing to do !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FShaBzJUy9M

That would be the best reason to recreate the Bill Green type hound....

powderhorn wrote:Did Del talk to you much about his decision to sell SC and start over again?

Some...he thought it was genetic, but now it appears it may have been dietary, based on what we know about the dog food of today. He also said "if not for the bloat, I would still be runnin' Sugar Creeks". He also said "that most people don't realize it, but Rattler was a 26" dog". And he also thinks that my 120# 29" SC x Cameron male is too big...and he might be.