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I will give you a few examples where it will hurt you on a track. If you have an older dog behind that opens on track not being able to run up it will train your pups to hold back with it. On a loose if a dog is barking off track until they learn to ignore it, it will pull dogs to it loosing more time on the track. Some[MOST] dogs that bark off track will open on a covered track and keep running the same circle a cat has made around its on track. When a cat is dodging and turning crossing its on track it pull dogs to it and looses made. A dog should shut up anytime a cat runs its own circle or crosses it on track until it has a clean track. Ever little distraction from other dogs can slow your dogs down. After a jump if a cat gets a break it will trot out and the dogs will be cold trailing again. If dogs are barking here and there going to the dogs barking off track soon no one will have the track. If your dogs are barking in the scent funnel or only when they have the clean track you will leap frog a track even on a cold track. Catching bobcats is time and distance, moving the track in the shortest amount of time the farthest is what catches bobcats. My dogs are very open mouth but do no bark off track and all run for the lead. If you ever have the chance to see some fox hounds run a red fox race do it. The way running bred dogs work a track is why I breed to them, not that they are fast but they trail a track fast. I could see no time that a dog barking behind could possibly help a track unless you have dogs completely over running a track and barking like that have it. WELL thats a totally different problem, just as bad or maybe worst. How many people really know what goes on out there? We strike a track, turn our dogs loose and hopefully go to a tree. Here's the important part most of us if we tree it or not we just make up a story as to what is NOT really happening. If you can hike behind dogs in the snow and read a trail or hunt open country on mules you would probably see something else going on. Remember guys I am not right or wrong I have just been able to spend a lot of time out there making all of the misstakes as possible. Think about it Dewey

Dewey,That was well explained and I couldn't agree more. My dog's I feel are pretty honest with there mouth's. Watch that video link I posted on page 6.

[quote="dw A dog should shut up anytime a cat runs its own circle or crosses it on track until it has a clean track. Ever little distraction from other dogs can slow your dogs down. . Think about it Dewey[/quote]
Yes that would be great. How can one be sure all the dogs are shutting up anytime a cat reruns a circle or crosses it/s own track, especially if you are running 10 to 14 dogs. Are you saying the dogs you hunt are shutting up every time this happens? Al Agree we all listen and try to visualize what is taking place, we all may or may not get it correct at times, in my opinion.

I don't quite see that happening to the T, if the dog's are jumped and got a Cat circling or dodging there pretty close so there probably going to be giving mouth.

Thanks for the video, believe anyone who has ran very many bobcat has seen that happen on a lose crossing a road. However I agree with Bludawg, when using ecollar to discourage off barking you may break or slow a dog down from doing so, however, that is not going to stop pups from that dog from barking off, in my opinion. So maybe, we should cull those dogs if trying to breed better dogs? There will always be different opinions, so try to agree to disagree. Al

What I saw on the beagle video, is the pack made a loose when they hit the road, they shut up like they were supposed to do, ebbe picked it up across the road and the pack harked to her, like they are supposed to do.
What I did not see is a dog in the back telling the ones in the front which way to go. When she hit it across the road she was in the front then, yelling here's where it went FOLLOW ME!

A dog that continues to open on an overrun or loose will screw up the whole race, it don't take very many times and you're just following or back to trailing, cat,fox or rabbit.

Yeah, That's what the video shows your right. But he talk's about other situations on how dogs can be controlled. That's all I was getting at but wasn't going to type it all out. It's like watching them African wild dogs hunt they communicate. Why when your out and about with your a hound a neighbors dog barks they dont go to it, but if a hound barks on track they go to the race. They can tell what's happening with every bark. They bark to communicate right?

Your right they are communicating but I believe the hound is saying here it is, but doesn't have enough sense to realize it doesn't have it anymore. If you run with the same dogs all the time the others will learn to ignore the idiot but how much game got away while they were learning that.
That said now I realize we have to hunt with what we got (sometimes it's get bys) if that dog is toting the load on some other part of the chase some off barking may have be tolerated until it can be replaced.

With my dogs and I have seen it with others[ hunting with the Clays when the dogs make a loose it goes quite until a dog picks it up the all honor and the race is on. I have seen it many times even when the dogs crosses a track that a cat has just crossed his on track the dogs go silent until they get pass the dog scent. A lot of the noise that is made out there on a track by most of the hounds is hounds barking behind on dog scent. I ran 8 dogs this winter on bobcats When a loose is made it goes silent until someone finds a clean scent. When one opens the others know it has the track. I like my dogs to stay closer to the track 0 to 10 feet from it. As he said in the video it does not take a fast dog to catch game it takes a good track dog. One that is on the track, does not bark off track and all the dogs honor it. I want all my dogs to be lead dogs and only one that may swing wide at a time. I ran a bobcat in the desert at night last winter with 8 dogs that the cat dodged, turned, doubled back on its own track and ran the rim rocks, they caught it on the ground and during a race that lasted a couple of hours the dogs held a tight pack not over 10 yards a part. I ran a fast dodging cat that treed right by me watching it go up a tree trying to catch its breath and falling out before it got to a limb because of exhaustion. There are a lot of dogs out there that can tree bobcats and there are dogs out there that catch most of the bobcats they start and jump. I will say it again you can have just as good of bobcat dogs as you are willing to put up with what they can do or can't do. Dewey

I've actually seen where the dog in last place was the best track dog .Now i've never ran a large pack and never will so i can't speak from that angle but i've saw where 2 or 3 dogs were burning a cat out in front of ole Rex and when they made a lose ole Rex would come through like a bullet and never miss a beat.This might happen several times before the cat was treed .Now who would you say treed that cat ?
Now i like a fast dog but they need to be a track dog first!

Ive seen that scenario too except the 2 dogs out in front didnt make much for loses and Ol Rex came into the tree about 5 minutes behind the other two. Up until that point in time i thot Ol Rex was about as good as they got as he had caught quite a few cats.

I don't have a dog that will loose mouth a track if they don't have it there ain't a peep. I like two have a couple dogs that are hard caster's they better not be saying a word when they swing but often enough you get a swinger that will make a good clean jump. The other day I had a pup swing around a boulder field instead of trailing threw she made a good jump and had it to her self for a little. One of the blue ticks can and will hold the front but a lot of times she's in the middle but on a duck and dodger she's the one that's staying under it's @$$. She is also the one that get's a lot of pick ups. Them swinger's can look like hero's but they got to know when it's time to get back in line. Anyone of them swinger's can drive a track from the front end. And obedience play's a role if I have one I think it's swinging to wide I can give it a Vibrate and get it to fall back in line.

Tim Pittman wrote:Just a thought for everyone. I've been working with local K9 officers with their dogs, something I realized from us as houndmen and everyone else in dog training. We all definitely suppress what a dog can comprehend and be trained to do and what level, because of our own inabilities or experiences that have made things factual in our own minds which interprets limatations, and unbelief as something else being possible.

So does this mean I can teach a dog to trail silent. I'm still not sure why that it's supposedly not possible.

dwalton wrote:I will give you a few examples where it will hurt you on a track. If you have an older dog behind that opens on track not being able to run up it will train your pups to hold back with it. On a loose if a dog is barking off track until they learn to ignore it, it will pull dogs to it loosing more time on the track. Some[MOST] dogs that bark off track will open on a covered track and keep running the same circle a cat has made around its on track. When a cat is dodging and turning crossing its on track it pull dogs to it and looses made. A dog should shut up anytime a cat runs its own circle or crosses it on track until it has a clean track. Ever little distraction from other dogs can slow your dogs down. After a jump if a cat gets a break it will trot out and the dogs will be cold trailing again. If dogs are barking here and there going to the dogs barking off track soon no one will have the track. If your dogs are barking in the scent funnel or only when they have the clean track you will leap frog a track even on a cold track. Catching bobcats is time and distance, moving the track in the shortest amount of time the farthest is what catches bobcats. My dogs are very open mouth but do no bark off track and all run for the lead. If you ever have the chance to see some fox hounds run a red fox race do it. The way running bred dogs work a track is why I breed to them, not that they are fast but they trail a track fast. I could see no time that a dog barking behind could possibly help a track unless you have dogs completely over running a track and barking like that have it. WELL thats a totally different problem, just as bad or maybe worst. How many people really know what goes on out there? We strike a track, turn our dogs loose and hopefully go to a tree. Here's the important part most of us if we tree it or not we just make up a story as to what is NOT really happening. If you can hike behind dogs in the snow and read a trail or hunt open country on mules you would probably see something else going on. Remember guys I am not right or wrong I have just been able to spend a lot of time out there making all of the misstakes as possible. Think about it Dewey

Great post !!!!

1bluedawg your example is a perfect one where the two dogs ahead or the one dog behind are hurting you in treeing bobcats. If they out run their nose or are making looses they were keeping the cat away from old Rex. If old Rex is barking not in the lead he maybe pulling the dogs in the lead back as the beagles did causing a loose. A pack of dogs needs to be balanced for speed and competitive enough to run for the lead and no barking off track. I pull my older dogs as soon as they start falling behind because they will pull the young dogs back. That said you will go through a lot of dogs to get that type of workability or they will be closely related. Again this is just the way I see it, hunt what works for you. Dewey