BigGameHoundsmen.com

This will give you something to read...

www.orecat.org

WOW, they sure are smart.

these people are nuts! and i guess im never going to bank with bank of america.

Wasn't "Bank of America" the one awhile back that had a problem with American flags being placed on their property during a funeral procession of an American soldier recently. Sounds like we need to avoid this branch of banks like the plague. Guy

Well I sent her an email. Not great, but I got to go to sleep so I can wake up for work tomorrow. Copied and pasted, see below:

Jane,
I appreciate your concern for cougars, I think they are about the neatest animal on the planet. I grew up in northeast Oregon and have seen some lion depredation on livestock but not anything extreme. What I have noticed however is that we have a huge increase in lion numbers and the deer and elk populations are taking the blow. You know in an ideal world we could have everything natural, but now its too late. I challenge you to go out and find a place that has not been altered by humans. You won't find one, when you think you have, look off into the distance for a cut tree, a candy wrapper, a road, a pipe or powerline, a field. Then look down at your feet, are all those plants native? Do you know? My guess is no. Also would where your standing be burned from a lightning fire that was put out by firefighters. Would those trees be there, or would there be trees there if there is not tree there? Then turn around would your foot prints be there? Did you disturb the soil? Did you alter the pattern of the wildlife by you walking in there? Or did you drive there? I could go on like this forever and I think you get that point. My point is we do not live in a world un altered by humans. So can we let nature just run its course? What I am really trying to say is that from what I gather you want to put an end to cougar hunting, right? And ODFW has a bad plan. Well, what is the best way for a hunter to specifically harvest (or a non fairy tale word for it, kill) a lion without kittens? The answer is by using hounds. Can a deer hunter walking along with a cougar tag in his or her pocket tell if a lion has kittens or if it is even a female, as it runs past? You may not believe me, and that is ok, but almost all houndsmen and women catch and release almost all of the lions they tree. They typically do not shoot females. Problem solved right? Wrong, ODFW did not take away hounds as a management tool, the people of metropolitan Oregon did. Why? Because they were lead to believe things that were not true and looked at an add on T.V. showing non typical hunters doing non typical things. Did they know the impact they would have on their other wildlife populations, probably not. And most probably didn't care because cougars must be endangered or something because they had never seen one, right? Wrong. They are not endangered, not even close. Please do yourself and your Country a favor and look into the literature. I could type and type and type, but I won't change your opinion. Take what I am saying as an opportunity to prove me wrong and educate yourself. Have an open mind. I understand where you are coming from but if you really care (and are not doing this for just the feel good feeling that you think you are making things better) then you will think outside your box. Extremes don't often work, read more, keep your passion, but don't loose sight of reality. I live in Arizona now, but I would encourage you to write back and take a trip down here. We will try and catch us a lion, it may take weeks(no tellin), but I bet when we got one caught, take a picture, pet the dogs, and leave, you will no longer think of lion hunting with dogs as inhumane or easy.

nice, well put! dang maybe a few houndsmen could take them enviros out on a hunt and show them the differant side of things.

JIMMY

I sent her a reply too:

"There are numerous inaccuracies and misconceptions on your web page.

Currently, cougars are extinct in 36 States of the Union due primarily to sports hunting and then habitat loss.

The extinction of cougar in most states where they no longer range is overwhelmingly due to habitat loss, and to a lesser extent predator control. Sport hunting plays a very minor role in cougar population density. An adult cougar will range roughly 600 square miles of territory.

Each year hundreds of baby cubs are orphaned because their Mother was shot or trapped. Why can you kill a Mother with dependent young that cannot live without her?

Because you folks have made sure that the ONLY hunting method that allows selective harvesting of adult cougar has been made illegal. According to ODFW "...cougar hunting success rates declined from 40 percent in 1994 [with dogs] to 2 percent in 2003...[without dogs]". There are currently only two methods of legal cougar population control, trapping by federal agents [now the vast majority of kills] and indiscriminate harvesting by hunters primarily hunting deer and elk. Both of these methods result in the killing of lactating females and the consequent deaths of their cubs:

"..both Beausoleil and Wielgus think bringing back hound hunting might be part of the answer. Wielgus argues that cougars fared far better with hound hunters than with deer and elk hunters, whose sheer numbers and indiscriminate hunting style nearly wiped out the population. Where hound hunters pursue mostly older males - the trophy toms - deer and elk hunters kill far more females, a study by Beausoleil shows, leaving more kittens vulnerable to starvation and predation."

You, yourself, support this theory:

Here in Oregon, ODFW hunting laws theoretically[?] does not allow a hunter to shoot doe’s with fawns, bear with cubs up to a year old, and cougars with cubs with spots. Mother cougars hunt without their cubs, so hunters do not know until after she is shot, if she had cubs. Cougar cubs with spots are only 3 to 4 months old. By the time they are 5 months old the spots are gone or nearly gone, but they still need to nurse and are not big enough to bring down food.

The following is totally beyond the pale:

Both of these issues indicates how flawed and inhuman ODFW cougar plan is. It takes 18 months for a mother cougar to raise her cubs to be independent and if she is killed, which ODFW plan targets primarily female cougars;...

Would you care to document how the plan targets females? I whole-heartedly agree that the plan is awful, but your exaggerations are unnecessary and hurt your credibility.

..than these orphaned cubs will either be sold on the black market, held in captivity by some harden soul for release near your schools to promote more cougar killing, killed by hunters or their dogs for fun, killed by natural predators, starve, or eat you pets and livestock.

I'm sorry. This is Area 51, tin foil hat stuff. Since the vast majority of cougar kills are now done by federal agents using blind snares that catch and kill everything and anything that stumbles into them, the cubs simply starve. There is no black market and no conspiracy to plant cougar in schoolyards.

ODFW policies create problem cougars where there were none or rare before. And more spotted cougar cubs are being found in the woods orphaned than ever before!

No, it's the legislation passed in 1994 that has created problem cougars. The cougar population has increased at a rate of 5% annually since 1994. Anyone who says they have raised livestock in cougar country without losing any to cougars is either very unobservant or disingenuous. My extended family has been in the cattle and wheat business in eastern Oregon since 1870. I do know what I'm talking about. Your hyperbole may garner large numbers of donations to your cause, but it is untrue, and frankly silly. We'll never be on the same side of this issue, but let's at least agree to be truthful."

Very good letter BlueJohn, and very true. I think I saw the tinfoil hat in her website photo . Here was her response to me:

Hi again, finally had a moment to read all your email. Some of your friends sent some pretty profane ones. OreCat owns a tape of hounds ripping cougar cubs apart - alive. National Humane society has several articles about the harsh and inhumane treatment dogs get in cougar fights and vis versa. We don't have a cougar, deer, or elk issue. We have a human issue. Kind regards, Jayne

Yes, we do have a human issue. We have too many humans raised on Walt Disney cartoons and ignorant of how wildlife actually behaves. I have no doubt they have a tape of dogs ripping lion cubs apart. I'm sure it's happened once or twice, like most any other scenario you can think of, but it's not the rule, and it's not what ethical houndsmen (the vast majority) would allow.

They been smokin too much Peyote, and dancing around under a full moon.

Here is the Email I received from Jayne after I briefly (and courteously) informed her that Most houndsmen are ethical and honest. Wow! This took me a bit by surprise, but I guess she was tired of receiving a bunch of emails from those who countered her offense.

Also, I think the only profanity I used was ''hell.'' - Jayne Miller-"...you need more education and less swearing to folks."

And I think the last sentence was the one that really got me. It didn't sit too well.


"I grew up on our families 7000 acre cattle ranch in KFalls. We did not allow hunting and had cougar, but every hunting season those "honest" hunters would decide they owned our land and not us. That our gates and fences were meant to be torn down, our horse shot out from under us, our windows to our home shot out, our cattle shot, our buildings damaged, my 12 year old brother shot at, and my friend 45 mins to die after a hunter shot her. Hunters have done a pretty good job all one their own to degrade themselves. You can learn more about that by what science is coming forward with. "Lords Of Nature, Life In A Land Of Great Predators" is a must see for you. Hunters like you don't own the land, are taking more than they are giving and are just plan wrong. The "sport" of hunting shows more ignorance than knowledge about what our eco systems need and is instead driven by a religious passion steeped in anger and far from common sense or compassion. And hunting does not even fit the definition of a sport. This hobby of killing is destroying our ecosystem. If you are hungry take the millions spent of this senseless sport and support local sustainable food and help stomp out hunger in America. I have my facts, and they are clearly straight and you need more education and less swearing to folks. I am still ranching today, and hunting is still not allowed on my land and hunters have killed my livestock. So whatever I have to say about hunters is from my experience from them and your email is no better. And, using dogs to hunt cougar is abusive to the dogs. I feel sorry for any animal or human that crosses your path."

Regards,
Jayne Miller

This lady is nuts a friend of mines wife just did an essay on cougar hunting for college and talked to jayne for awhile. she openly admitted to killing a pack of hounds that got on her property. She said she shot them and then the ones that were still alive she beat to death with the gun butt. she didnt know very much facts about cougars either. fro what my friend said jayne runs like three of these internet sites and was a person that really pushed the vote to stop our hunting

You are trying to reason with the un-reasonable. This woman clearly bases everything in her world on her perception of the world.

I live in kfalls and my family has been here for more then a 100 years, and i dont know of a rancher yet that disagrees with us on hunting cougers.I talk to them all the time and they tell to do the 3s Shot,Shovel, and shut up. I keep telling them when we get it back i will buy every dry ground lion hound i can find and we will get them in check.

The members and people that are a part of that sight have no idea what they are talking about. And have no business having a website that contains any opinion on anything. Its people like them that made it cost so much money to have a hobbies like hunting, hiking, or camping.