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I'm hoping you dry ground guys will chime in on this one as I have never been around dry ground dogs. The country I hunt and have always hunted has never required a sure enough cold nosed dog. We have a great bear, fox, bobcat population in Ca. Lion also but can't run them.
I have always hunted with trigg/cross dogs. These dogs not only would smoke a bear but would not have any problem putting up a fox on a consistent basis. The nose varied with the dog but most were medium nosed dogs. Back in the 90's when it was legal in Oregon to run bear and lion we also treed our fair share of lion with and without snow. Never had a problem. If I was to have taken these dogs into the desert I'm sure they would not have looked so good.
My question is these dry ground dogs. If you were to bring them into the mountains with lots of moisture how would they do. Would the extreme nose power make them move a track faster and if so would they catch fox on a consistent basis. The way I understand it these dryground dogs stick their nose in the track and keep it there unlike the running dogs which run with their heads up. To my way of thinking these type of dogs would never catch a running dog. I might be way off and thats why I am asking your guys opinion. This will either have some good info/advice come out of it or one heck of a pissing match. Thanks all

Different regions require different methods and techniques..up there in nor-cal the climate is more moist, which makes for better trailing conditions unlike places such as southern AZ or new mexico..i htink if you brought one of those medium nosed, "run to catch" marathon dogs down here he wouldnt know what the hell to do at first on a real cold track, but i think a dog that can cold trail a track all day will flat out smoke hot tracks all day
but what the hell do i know anyway? LOL

just my .2 cents

Never been around running dogs so I can't compare, but my dogs have what I consider to be cold noses(don't need em if they're not) They will cold trail and pick it up & move a track. If they won't move a track when it should be they're not much good either.
Guess what I'm sayin is: I require mine to do both...


As far as moisture being a factor: I believe a track made where there's not much moisture to evaporate lays longer and can be trailed longer so I would have to disagree that moisture always helps... It could as long as there is slow evaporation. (in my opinion) Sorry for gettin off topic...Later, Jeff

Where I live in Canada you can hunt bear cougar bobcat and linx. now when we run a hot bear the dogs run with there heads up and run fast. But if you are trying to start a two day old bobcat you can walk with the dogs and watch them sniff each foot print.
That does'nt have anything to do with dry ground, just saying that good dogs ajust.

There is absolutley no argument in this topic. If somebody starts it it will be a red flag: rememeber that ok?

Running dogs that are tough on cats and lion can do a good job in the desert if they hit a track at the right time. I mean when the fruit is right the pickings are good. And old Blackie Woods famous dry ground hunter from Alpine, Texas high. west and damn dry had a July that was hard to beat. No maybe not the dog to strike a three day old one thre and MAYBE ? work it out but he caught a ton of lions. And up where it is moist and fairly easy trailing I am not so sure many of those dry ground wonders would be the lead dog to the tree. BUT WHO CARES? I mean really use what works where you hunt. I been hunting lately on the Mexican border hotter than hell and tough and dry. Can some dogs do it? Well sure or why even roll out of bed that early in the morning and saddle them damn jack asses and go? but would those top dogs be the best in other areas. Maybe but maybe not. Use what works in the area you are hunting.


I like hounds running or treeing whether up in the mountains trailing a lion or chasing a fox and jumping a fence. Maybe you should throw a smart cur dog in with either it will up your odds and makes good sense. But pissing and moaning and arguing about the dogs you run, won't catch very much game, and to me it ain't much fun.

Famous quotation by an infamous hound guy. His name was ?Well I forgot what his name was, we'll just call him Fred.LOL!

Mike I think you hit the nail on the head. You have always given me good advice and I sure appreciate it. I am happy with my pack. I was out of hounds for awhile and started back into it about 3 yrs ago. Bred the kind of pups I wanted and they started catching bear for me last year. Their siblings are all catching fox and bear. I guess I didn't phrase my question well enough. After seeing all the arguing back and forth here about dry ground dogs etc, my question is are these dry ground style dogs in general fast, medium, slow in good trailing conditions. Will a good dog from desert country be a super dog in good country. I'm talking trailing ability only.

My two cents worth,

A very wise hunter and buddy of mine has said many times in the past that a pack of dogs with varying degrees of excellence will out due a pack of specialist. Meaning that if you only have one kind of skill then you had better stay in the area where your dogs excell, but if you have different dogs with different skills then you can hunt many more places. I have a mixed pack varying from cold nose to medium nose to greased lighting. I can hunt dry ground, snow, and anything in between. I chase bears, lions, and bobcats. Just my opinion but I love to hunt and gotta have a mixed up pack so they can hunt wherever I might take them.

As far as your question goes though, my fast dog does really well in snow and with bears. My dry ground dogs do well with cats on dry ground but don't keep up with my bear dog.

like I said JMO

we've had great moisture this year not exactly like your country but for us good. it has a whole hat full of differences it brings. one more cool season forbes and grasses which catch scent off the ground in some places and humidity swings up and down. it also washes the scent pools out, those strange little places that hold scent forever and will always perk the pups up. to me a cold nosed hound has the ability to pick up older scent and most importantly the experience or brains to judge it and trail it accordingly. a hound can only run a track so fast so if he's pushing HIS envelope he wont trail any faster any where else. I think most people picture a dry ground cold trailer as the hound that wont lift it's head untill it bumps a tree or game . That may have been some of the old time packs but most current hounds will lift their heads an run but they have a narrower scent channel to stay in. so long answer short I don't think a good dirt dog will really out shine a really good hound thats used to running in your country. now if it's a poor track he may start picking up the trackand moving it better because he has had the experience to lean on and knows how to do it.

In my experience a dog that is a good cold trailer in the desert can trail anywhere.

But that doesnt mean they will outshine dogs from other climates when it comes to catching.

A super good cold trailing desert dog wont nessecarily trail faster than other dogs in better trailing conditions. Obviously this varies with individual dogs as stated above.

A friend of mine had one of the best dry ground dogs i had ever hunted with. She could flat ass out cold trail two-three day old tracks. We hunted her in fresh snow on some night old tracks with medium nosed dogs and she wasnt any faster at trailing in fact she was slower because she had never hunted in snow enough to use her eyes as well as her nose to run a track.

But as a whole(whatch out here comes a big blanket statement) the really good dry ground dogs i have hunted with would not be considered to be fast. Guys who hunt running breeds would probably considered them to be be slow/average speed

I think that brain power has a lot to do with having a versitile dog. I have two dogs that would fall under that category. rest of m,y pack is just greased lightning. but the two smartest ones can adjust from slow cold trailing with their nose suckin like a hoover to haulin a$$ with their head in the air. I also agree with what the other feller said about running the track by sight. The best is to have a mix of every speed and nose power. the running dogs move it fast while the cold nosers check em and keep em honest.

Ive found good dog from your own region hunted in your own conditions generly work best but take a good bred pup from any region and start it where you hunt and in most cases end up with a good dog.

" I KNOW scent will hold much longer and can be followed more steadily without gaps,if the weather and ground surface are uniformly dry than if there has been recent moisture.This applies at elevations from six to ten thousand feet and in the climate of the arid Southwest.Some hunters seem to think moisture is an aid to trailing,but my experience has been that just the opposite is true." Dub Evans.

"As we rode down Indian Creek we saw a fresh looking track of a good sized black bear.Tracking conditions were good in the dry,soft dirt, and we followed the track down Indian Creek for several miles to a point where the bear climbed out of the canyon bottom,turning off at right angles.We discovered later that the bear was following the scent from a pile of cat and coyote carcasses which had been piled in a header by Scotty,from his winter's trapping.On our return trip to Horse Camp four days later,we brought the hounds along,making the same detour by upper Indian Creek.As soon as the hounds reached the canyon they opened upon a trail and took off down the canyon at a fast gait.We rode after them,checking for bear tracks,but there was nothing but the track we had seen on our earlier trip.We followed at a lope because we were eager to see what would happen when the hounds reached the spot where the bear had turned to go to the cat and coyote carcasses.The trail was good enough for the hounds to pick up easily by circling if they ran past the place where the bear made the turn.They followed the trail right to the pile of carcasses and we called them off,as the bear was probably well into the Mogollans or the West Fork of the Gila by that time." Dub Evans

"Ever since we started hunting we have given a great deal of thought to scent, trailing conditions, a subject that has never been mastered by any hunter, in our opinion: so like you, we have to base our judgment upon our own experiences.
Yes, we have seen a pack of hounds fail to handle a lion trail which should have been fresh, or hot; and one of these packs trailed a lion, and did a good job of it, which I had killed seven days before with another pack of hounds; and I know it was this trail the hounds were following because they trailed her from where the other pack of hounds had jumped her. She had jumped from a number of trees before finally being killed, and this last pack of hounds trailed her to each tree until they reached the last one." Ernest Lee.

"I have found lion trails that I knew to be 5 days old that were good enough for the hounds to follow,making pretty good time." Dub Evans

I'm no dry ground hunter but it has always been my impression from what I have read from several of the old timers,that the arid Southwest has some of the best trailing conditions available.

Those are all good points trueblue, but my personal experiance is opposite. I hunt alot in the deserts around saint george and I hunt an eaqual amount in piute and garfeild county in the middle of the state. the difference between the two places when all the snow is long gone is humidity. I am able to finish more tracks where the ground is very dry and the humidity is high as well. also a good deep shady canyon with some nice pine slopes seems to help. deep piney canyon usually has a creek for the dogs to wet their wistles and head out again. That's just me and my experiace, I'm sure it's different for everyone.

"the arid Southwest has some of the best trailing conditions available".

Consistant yes! at times. The "BEST trailing conditons" far from it!

Trueblue,

You are absolutly correct. The southwest does have some of the best trailing conditions anywhere. This is one of the primary reasons the southwest is and always has been the kingdowm of the bare ground lion hunter. This being said not all of the southwest has good bare ground trailing conditions except at very precise times of the year. To roughly etch out some of the better bare ground trailing areas look at a map of New Mexico and Arizona together. Note Interstate 40 use that as your north border and then look at US Highway 285 in New Mexico and use that as your eastern border. A large portion of the best overall bare ground hunting areas fall within this block. Although there are pockets that are better than others especially in the far southwest in the small mountain ranges the bulk of lion habitat in these areas has suitable rocks, brush, soil and and vegitation to allow for better bare ground trailing. There are numerous pockets outside of this that see a lot of bare ground action such as parts of northern Arizona and New Mexico. but clay and sand based soils are terrible for holding scent also the elevations make for wide temperature swings over the course of the day and night. Also these areas do get snow fall during the hunting months allowing for heavy sport harvest by snow going lion hunters. Ofcourse the southwest corner of Utah and the eastern border of Nevada see bare ground hunters and some of the best I might add but they deal with the cold, the wind, and clay and coral sand based dirt and this is not the best to hold scent. Portions of west Texas have decent bare ground trailing during select periods. To get an idea of those areas look at the portion of southern New Mexico that touches Texas, now draw a line from that down to the Big Bend of Texas and the area on the west including but not limited to, the Davis Mountains, Glass Mountains Christmas Mountain, Van Horn Mountains and a few other small ranges offer lion country but much of it is private ground.


It is no wonder that some of the most famous names synonamous with dirt lion hunting come from the areas I described.
Dub Evans who you quoted the Black Range Country of New Mexico.
Ben Lilly all of that country on both sides of the state line.
The Lees.
Albert and Homer Pickens.

The Goswicks
Montague Stevens.
and too many more to mention of the old timers not to mention others today including Warner Glenn, Steve Smith, Bill workman, Larry Hendrix,Sam Dierenger, Chris Todd,Jim Bobb, Orvill Fletcher,Jon Kibler,Olley Barnney, Dean Warren, Benny Griffon,Billy Marks, Billy Kienhe, Terrel shelly, Sewell Goodwin, Ted Ferguson,John Klump,Roland Rice, Floyd,Gene and Jinx Pyle, and many many more came from within these lines.

Of course famous bare ground hunters have come from those pockets outside I mentioed like. Jack Butler, Bob Vaughn,Milt Holt, Leon Cox, Jerry Hughes,Hap Blackston, John Childs,Charlie Leader,Jeff Allen,Smoke and Bert Emmit, the Meachams, Garn Blackburn Arnold Button, Richard Holcomb, Bruce BullDarrel Frye, Wiley Carroll, Bill Green, and a lot more I can think of at the time.The Espys and McBrides and Henry McKintyre of Texas.


There has been a lot of good bare ground lion hunters in California but with the lion no longer considered fair chase for the average Joe I won't mention any hunters from there although there were some in the past and some presently in the State and Govt. ranks that are among the best.


Some catch lions on the bare everyplace they are hunted including Canada, but as you said the best conditions over the longest period of the year to develop and hone this skill comes from the southwest.