BigGameHoundsmen.com

Folks,

Here is a Conversation going on between Mr. Larry Morgan from South Louisiana, a Top Breeder and Hunter of Blue Coon Hounds and Dad and I reference getting started Bobcat Hunting in the South and Southeastern US.

I asked and recieved permission to move this over here so that others might get some benefit and enjoyment from this exchange.

Big N Blue and Shorty will have some commentary and input....others please feel free to join in!

CJC

lmorgan
Message subject: Bobcat questionFolder: Inbox
You come highly recommend by a couple of mutual friends, namely Mike Leonard and David Sudduth. I've been hunting coons in the swamps and piney woods of southeast Louisiana and SW Mississippi pretty much my entire life. I've been thinking a lot lately of trying my hand at something different, namely bobcats. Trouble is, I don't know anything about bobcat hunting except that some of the worst hunts I've ever had was in the big swamps when my trashy hounds would jump a bob and we'd wade chest deep water all night.

Are you up to helping teach an old dog new tricks? If you're in central Arkansas, I'd figure that your terrain and hunting conditions would be similar to mine.

Larry

Message subject: Re: Bobcat questionFolder: Sent messages
Hello Larry,

We have talked before!

I have enjoyed your Post here on BGH....you seem to know the difference between "Come Here" and "Sickem"....that means a lot!

I think the last time we talked I reffered you to Mr. Harold Parker from Sumerall, MS. I know Harold hunts with Mike Cauley some there just out of BR.

We used to hunt around Melville, LA in the Atch. Basin.
There were lots of Good Running Cat there and still aught to be as No One is Hunting them regularly....Dad goes down there occansionally and Harold makes a Hunt or so there.

We will be here in AR till the 23rd of Sept. you are welcome to come spend some time with Dad and pick his Brain on Bobcat Hunting. Best to do this soon as he is not doing well with his fight against Old Age and Prostate Cancer!

I hear that you are already a Houndsman...if you want some Cat Hounds to Start Hunting a friend of ours has a nice Pack of SouthTexas Cat Hounds for Sale. These are Broke Hounds that will start you on the way to Cat Hunting....but will be only a place to START. You would need to add some Running Type Hounds to them after you learn where your Game is and How the Cat Run.

Then (in 6 months or so) add a couple of the too old to Field Trail, nicely bred Derby Hounds that you should be able to pick up in MS. Keep building and culling and in a year or two the Cat population will be in Jeapordy!

Cat Hounds that will really do well where you hunt just are not available at any Price right now. There are a couple of fellows who were born RICH and turned that into a MAJOR fortune in S. Texas who are trying to buy Cat Hounds...for them Money is no object and they can not find any.

There are three fellows around Jessup GA who raise and train Grey Fox/Bobcat Hounds. They sold their inventory last spring to a Mexican Cat Hunter who bought every Hound on the Gulf and East Coast that was worth feeding who could be bought; he gave way too much money for what he bought. We heard that he avg. over $3,000.00 on 25+ hounds.

Call me @ 870-223-2063 and we can talk, if Dad is feeling up to it he will be glad to talk Hounds with you!

Good Luck and I look forward to hearing from you!

CJC



lmorgan
Message subject: Re: Bobcat questionFolder: Inbox
I guess my questions need to be a little more specific. First off, do you have a different name besides Dadsdogboy? I remember talking to you in the past, but I lost the contact information for the guy in Sumrall. Let me break my questions down a little.

1. Do you only use running hounds on bobcats, stuff like we still use for deer and fox? Running walkers, triggs, etc? I'm pretty partial to tree hounds so maybe I'm way off base for even thinking about using them? I was under the impression that most folks still used tree hounds for bobcat.

2. How do you go about finding a track to run. Driving roads in the snow definitely ain't an option, so how do we do it down here? I know what kind of country to turn loose in to find a coon track, but what about cats? Like I said, I've treed a bunch of bobcat over the years, but it was not my original intention, that's for sure.

3. Melville and the basin swamp (Morganza Spillway) is close enough to me that I can make the drive over some weekends if I'm going to stay overnight, but my closest hunting area with a known bobcat population and the room to run them is the Homochitto Nat. Forest in SW Mississippi. It's mostly Mississippi river basin piney woods and hardwood flats in some pretty rugged bluffs and ravines. Plenty of creeks but not too swampy. Most of it is closed to motorized traffic, so I'd like to do most of my hunting from my mules. Is this feasible?

Thanks for the information so far. I'll save your phone number and give you a call as soon as I can.

Larry


Dads dogboy
Message subject: Re: Bobcat questionFolder: Sent messages
Mr. Larry,

Let me answere your questions in order. Also you need to talk to David Sudduth as to the usefulness of Tree Bred Hounds in the South and South East. 713-829-0046.

1. Do you only use running hounds on bobcats, stuff like we still use for deer and fox? Running walkers, triggs, etc? I'm pretty partial to tree hounds so maybe I'm way off base for even thinking about using them? I was under the impression that most folks still used tree hounds for bobcat.

Calling David will answer Question 1, when you come see us Dad will tell you of his 15 years of trying to consistantly catch Bobcat with Coon Hounds.

2. How do you go about finding a track to run. Driving roads in the snow definitely ain't an option, so how do we do it down here? I know what kind of country to turn loose in to find a coon track, but what about cats? Like I said, I've treed a bunch of bobcat over the years, but it was not my original intention, that's for sure.

The old way of striking a Cat track was to road hunt 4 or so Hounds ahead of your truck through likely Bobcat Country. (this is why I said in my first reply that you would need to locate your game, some roads Bobcat will use over another close by). Now we have our Hounds trained to Rig of the Box...this allows us to cover much more country and save wear and tear on the Hounds.

3. Melville and the basin swamp (Morganza Spillway) is close enough to me that I can make the drive over some weekends if I'm going to stay overnight, but my closest hunting area with a known bobcat population and the room to run them is the Homochitto Nat. Forest in SW Mississippi. It's mostly Mississippi river basin piney woods and hardwood flats in some pretty rugged bluffs and ravines. Plenty of creeks but not too swampy. Most of it is closed to motorized traffic, so I'd like to do most of my hunting from my mules. Is this feasible?

Yes as to using Mules or Horses...when Dad first started hunting in the Basin there were few roads, therefore almost all of their Hunting was Horseback.
Getting your Hounds HORSE or MULE broke will take an afternoon or two, then both will understand the Game and How it is played!

We used to have a good friend who was a teacher in Washington, LA (Mr. Marvin Anderson, deceased) who Bobcat hunted with Dad for over 40 years. He became one of two retirement homes for Dads older Hounds. The other retierment home was another reformed teacher up in Olla, LA (Mr. Bobby Bradford).

Call David before you spend too much time and energy on this as he can save you lots of Heart Ache. He paid a very high Tuition for his education on Bobcat Hunting with Tree Hounds.

Lesson ONE....To be successful with Bobcat Hunting, is that one must adjust his Hounds to the part of the Country and type terrain that he will be Hunting!

CJC
Carey J. Clay
870-223-2063

Guys,

I've been exchanging a few messages over on the biggame forum with Carey Clay (Dadsdogboy) about bobcat hunting in this part of the world. I already know his and his dads' reputations about their knowledge of bobcat hunting. One thing he brought up in no uncertain terms was that we needed running hounds and not tree hounds for bobcats. That kind of took me by surprise. I can understand having tree hounds that are CATbred instead of coonhounds, but I was under the impression (wrongfully maybe?) that people treed bobcats and not just ran them
to catch on the ground.

I live in a part of the country where hound hunting is not under regular attack by the antis. We can still free cast running hounds on deer, coyote, fox and rabbit and can cast our tree hounds on everything from coon to possum. I've got access to some pretty big woods to bobcat hunt, but I'm not sure I'd be interested if I couldn't do it with tree hounds (of any breed). Just like deer and fox hunting never really got my attention... I like a tree at the end of my race.

How did I get so off base in thinking you could have hounds that treed bobcat, sort of like the guys out west can tree mt. lion?

Larry


Welcome to the world of the unknown. LOL Bobcat hunting. In the country that you will be hunting in, probably less than half the cats you run will take a tree. The ones that do will probably take a bulldozer to get to. Back in the early 80's I bought about as good a strike dog on bobcat that ever lived from Buster Moore of Huntsville,TX. At that time Hoy Biscamp and I were hunting almost every night. He said "Get a straight cat dog and I will furnish the rest". Well, we went thru about 400 hounds before we could find dogs that could stay with Rambler and when we did none of them were blue.

All running dogs, some would tree lightly. We caught a lot of cats after we figured out what type of dog it took to hunt in the terrain we were hunting in.

That being said, I am like you, I prefer houndy hounds that tree, but bobcat hunting in the South East is a completely different ballgame even from hunting them in the west. I have treed several bobcats with tree bred hounds on the Blue but usually do not let my lion hounds mess with them unless they are very hot.

Shorty has been using his tree bred hounds in S. Texas with good results. Chime in Shorty, not sure if you are catching them on the ground or treeing them.

Regards,

David Sudduth

Carey,

Thanks for the answers. It clears up a lot. Thankfully, I talk to David pretty regularly so I can start picking his brain on this subject. We've had more than a few conversations about using coon bred hounds on mountain lion, but we haven't discussed bobcat hunting any.

I know this is going to sound stupid, but since you're using running hounds instead of tree hounds, how are you getting bobcats? Are they running to catch, or are they bringing the cats back to you like deer hounds do?

See, that's why I decided to message you in the first place. I think I know enough after 30 years of coon hunting to get a hound trained and a few coons nailed to the barn door, but I'm a greenhorn when it comes to cats.

As for the hunting on horseback... every dog I own has to be horse broke, whether its a coond dog, cow dog, squirrel dog or even a beagle for rabbits. It's just a way of life around here.

Larry

Message subject: Re: Bobcat questionFolder: Sent messages
Larry,

60 % of the Cat we jump end up either caught, bayed in the Water or a Brushpile, or put into a Hole in the ground. Dads Hounds will bay after the catch so I can pick up the Dead Cat to weigh and record pertinant Data on Sex, Size and food contents of the Cats stomack. (this % has dropped from 90% that used to be caught on the ground) Dad started keeping these records 40+ years ago for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, he has continued as this helps to keep him informed of the health of the Bobcat population where he Hunts and the Habits of the Critters therein!

Of the other 40%, over 90% of these go up a Tree.

Dad's Running Walker Line of Hounds produces some Tree Hounds. We have one sometime Tree Dog (when she fails to bark, she will bark around the tree at the end of the track enough for me to mark it on my Garmin and find the Cat more times than not), Glen Rybard has three of Dads bred Hounds who do not miss many Trees. Mr. Harold has one Hound who is a pretty good locator.

As we are putting more pressure (translates into Hounds becoming better and MORE effecient) on a Bobcat quicker in the Race, more Cat are going up Trees.

Glad you are into Mules as that is all that I will ride anymore. However where we hunt there are plenty of good roads to use and this allows me to keep my 80 year old Dad close enough in his "White Toyoto Charger" to continue to enjoy the Sport even after 51 years and over 7,000 Bobcat caught!

Mr.Joe Rufus Lyne in South Texas (deceased) caught more Bobcat than any Hunter who ever lived, but Dad has caught more in different States (14) than any other Hunter.

Keep asking, the only "Dumb" question is the one that you did not ask!

CJC


Larry,

I am enjoying this conversation. David forwarded y'alls emails to me.

I would like to bring this conversation to the open forum as other Hunters in the South and South East have been asking the same questions.

As an aside Shorty is Mr. Joe Rufus Lyne's Grand-Son in Law. Shorty will know from the Stories he has heard that even as good as Mr. Joes Hounds were in South TX, when he went to the Melville, LA country he did not have enough Dog Power to close the deal on Bobcat consistantly.

There recently has been a man spending BIG Bucks buying Cat Hounds from TN and further north to try and Cat Hunt in the South AR and MS Delta Country. He is being sorely disappointed in the results and we hear is down on the People he bought Hounds from...well they probably sold him Nice, Productive Hounds where they came from, but just do not have the qualities needed to
Close out a Bobcat Race where he is Hunting.

We hear that he is Treeing lots of Cat but that they are jumping out before he gets to the tree, etc.

In Dads experience the Cat had not climbed...it was just the kind of BAD lose that you will have in any Cat race no matter how GOOD your Hounds are. Then these Treebred Hound's Gentics takes over...if we can not smell it on the ground....the Varmit must be up in a Tree!

If you put a Cat up with Hounds that are running him to Catch and Kill him, when he climbs, you do not need to worry about the Cat Jumping before you get to the Tree....it will take much persuasion to get the Cat out of the Tree!

Let me know about moving this to the Forum.

Thanks!

CJC

Message subject: Re: Bobcat questionFolder: Inbox
Carey,

I sure appreciate the time to school me on some of this stuff. Like I told David, I don't know how into running-to-catch hunting I'd be, but I would like to tag along one of these days and see what its all about. I've deer hunted, fox hunted and rabbit hunted with running hounds and the only one that really got my attention enough to keep doing it was rabbit hunting.

I sure understand what you're saying, though, and it makes perfect sense to me. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing. I've been the victim of several of those "jump out" bobcat hunts over the years. All I can figure is that if the cat wasn't jumping out, he must have at least tap treed because the dogs would lock down treed hard and then tear out of there on the track like they were looking at him just to do it all over again.

I knew that Shorty was married to Phil Lyne's daughter. Anybody that knows rodeo knows Phil Lyne. I had no idea that Phil's dad was a well known south Texas cat hunter, though. I knew they were hunters, just didn't know what.

I have no problem with you moving it to the forum. Maybe others are as clueless as I am. They stand to gain a lot as I have from the knowledge of you and your dad.

Larry

Go to Ark & hunt a couple of nights with John & Mr. Clay.
They welcome u & have nice place to bunk & John,s mother is the best cook ever.
U will learn more in 2 nights about cat hunting than u will in a year any place else.
The southern hospitality is tops at their place.
As for getting a pack started, good luck.
Cat dogs that can get the job done on a consistance basis are not for sale at any place on the planet. People just don,t sell these dogs at any price. Just ask Mr Clay, he has the best cat dogs on the planet & to my knowlege never sold one in his life. I know he has give dogs to special people.
I hope Mr Clay is feeling better & gets to hunt a lot this winter.

Amen to Mr. Clay feeling better. I pray he has many more years of the opry in front of him!

Hipshooter,

Thanks for the very kind words!

We hope that you are feelig better as well and come to see us again soon!

The Welcome mat is always out for Hunters who would like to visit with Dad and make a Hunt to see if his Hounds are for real. What little he knows about Bobcats (Dad says that NO one truly knows anything about a Bobcat except another Bobcat) he is willing to share with others....it is all knowledge picked up in the Bobcat Hunting School of Hard Knocks.

I thought that I would add this Email from Mr. Mike Leonard in our exchange with Mr. Larry Morgan about Bobcat hunting in South Louisiana.....and trying to use Tree bred Hounds to do it.

This falls under the Heading of what part of our Wonderful Sport turns you on. We are Blessed in this Country with the option of having Running Type Hounds to pursue one kind of Varmints.... and Tree Bred Hounds to pursue others.

Mr. Mike wrote:

I enjoy western bobcat hunting but in reality it is a pretty specialized sport and not many folks out west catch a lot of cats excluding the guys in the Pacific Northwest which really doesn't qualify to me as true western cat hunting.

I usually sort of bend my lion hounds off the bobbys so I don't spend
all damn day pissing around in a rock pile when I could be hunting a lion track.

I have zero interest in running dogs and wearing a cat out in a green briar thicket till his muscles seize up and he either climbs or lays down. I would much prefer a good coon race and tree and the cat hides for the most part are not much good in that country.

I guess I just prefer to hear a dog locate and tree. But if I was into that sort of sport I think I would pull them off the stub tails and start running coyotes then you can really have a gasser of a race.

Course you may burn up a couple of tanks of gas catching up with them. LOL!


Thanks as always Mr. Mike....and I look forward to sitting in the Saddle on a Ridge with you and Big N Blue listening to Cricket and your Hounds pound out an Ole Lion's track.... I have often wanted to sit and "Watch Paint Dry"! LOL

CJC

larry, call 225-698-3884 or 225-622-2389. if interested, i have a camp that borders the forrest and has a lot of public land close by. i am trying my hand at cat hunting and not having a lot of luck. i started in feb. 09 and havnt caught a cat yet. hunt most every week and will start hunting more in sept. i too am a retired coon hunter and it is more to cat hunting than turning a dog in on a corn feeder. ive decided to forget everything i thought i knew about dog work and start trying to learn how to cat hunt. if i had bought the best cat dogs in the south when i first started, i probably would have ruined them in just a few months. this cat deal is different. call if interested in going hunting.

macedonia mule man wrote:larry, call 225-698-3884 or 225-622-2389. if interested, i have a camp that borders the forrest and has a lot of public land close by. i am trying my hand at cat hunting and not having a lot of luck. i started in feb. 09 and havnt caught a cat yet. hunt most every week and will start hunting more in sept. i too am a retired coon hunter and it is more to cat hunting than turning a dog in on a corn feeder. ive decided to forget everything i thought i knew about dog work and start trying to learn how to cat hunt. if i had bought the best cat dogs in the south when i first started, i probably would have ruined them in just a few months. this cat deal is different. call if interested in going hunting.

LOL You are learning like I did! Keep at it and good luck, once you have it figured out you will be proud of youself!!

Location makes all the difference in the world when deciding what will work and what won't!!!!! I learned that through hard knocks and big bucks.
Derek

I guess I better clear something up real quick... I'm not a top breeder of good quality blue hounds. I'm just a fat ol' country coon hunter that has been blessed to own a few culls over the years that nobody else wanted and I was dumb enough to feed. As for cat hunting, I'll be the absolute first to stand up publically and say that I know absolutely nothing about the entire deal. But I do know that the Clays have an outstanding reputation and I've never heard a negative word spoken about them. I believe one person told me that two finer men never walked the earth. That's pretty high praise in my book. I totally intend to take them up on their offer for some hospitality one of these days and I hope they accept my offer as well.

Looks like when I decided to ask my questions about cat hunting in the deep south, I went to the right source. Thanks everyone for the good advice. Macedonia Mule Man, I'll definitely be giving you a call.

I guess I'm different then most. I'd hunt anything just to see good dog work. i don't really care about the style so long as it is appropriate for the region and game. my hat is off to anyone who can train, work, or breed dogs for a specific job. just recognizing what traits are needed is way ahead of many. Mr. clay has put his time in and it is a great thing to know the enjoyment it brings to him. The thing that really speaks volumes about the Clays is their willingness to share their paycheck with everyone else.

Pegleg

You nailed it when you said share the paycheck!! What I would have saved in time and money when Hoy and I were trying to build a cat pack is not measurable. If we would have had the mentoring that is coming for free on this forum we would have saved thousands in time and money. If it would not have been for one of Mr. Clays friends that took me under his wings and taught us, we probably would have never gotten it right. It take a tremedous amount of time and money to cat hunt. I have hunted many nights from can to can't and never got a tail wiggle, much less a race. The amount of time and effort it takes to hunt the piney woods for bobcat will break the spirit of most hunters. Most will not hunt 2,3,4,5 nights all night and not get a bark, but sometimes that is the reality of it. Then again, when things are right and the cats are moving, it is all worth it. I have broken the spirit of a awfull lot of coonhunters when I had good dogs because it was just too boring for them to sit in a truck and watch dogs travel down the road peeing on every other bush. LOL My wife's uncle was a great houndman.
He called me one day and said, well I here you got some good cat dogs and I told him to fly down and I would pick him up. Well we roaded all night, 2 nights in a row. Coons,possums,coyotes and a black house cat crossed in front of the 7 dogs I had out.
Not a bark, He said those dogs won't run anything. To make a long story short, he flew back the next weekend and we had not roaded 30 minutes and they started a cold cat and we had him caught in about 1hr.10 min. in a brushpile, got him out of there, ran a pretty good circle and caught him in the same brushpile. If he would not have known me, he probably would not have come back that second weekend and I could not blame him. LOL That is just cat hunting in the piney woods. Feast or Famine.

Well I finaly got my computer working so I could chime in. I've gotta tell you that I truely believe you just have to hunt what you like. Most people hunt running dogs down this way and have more success than I do. They are also hunting alot more than I as my schedual doesn't allow more. For the amount that my dogs get hunted I am very happy with them. I know they aren't the perfect hound for this area but you've also gotte remember that my favorite game is a long tale.

This toppic has come up several times while hunting with buddies around here. The general consinses is this. The running dogs have obviousley got mor endurance than a tree hound. Most of your really good cat hunters down here will make ten to twelve hunts a week. They hunt from just before sun down till things slow down, take a nap then hunt till it gets too hot. Now at the end of the twelvth day most your tree hounds don't care to take another track or not. A running dog will still strike a track while the tree dogs is just waiting for you to stop and drop the tail gate.

Now like I said I don't hunt nearly this much so I am happy with the way my dogs perform. In my situation I believe I would only have a wreck with running dogs as I would never get them hunted down enough. I've never hunted or rode anything that didn't work better alittle on the tired side.

P.S. In country most the running dogs tree decent, the trees are all very low down here.

Mr. Larry wrote in an Email:

I would still love to take the Clays up on their offer to come enjoy a good bobcat hunt and I'm sure I would enjoy it. I've enjoyed some really good times sitting on a tree stand listening to a good well tuned pack of deer dogs push a big buck through the Mississippi River bottoms and they worked together like a well oiled machine.

Same with sitting on a tailgate by a roaring fire on a cold Night listening to a pack of fox hounds push a fox most of the night.

But for me personally, I get more pleasure sitting on a little stubby mule or on an old cypress stump by a campfire listening to three or four good bawl mouth hounds work a bad feeder track until they warm it up enough to finally push the old coon and put a tree on the end of it. A good locating bawl on a cold winter night in a big swampy oak flat can send shivers up your spine.

I have nothing against running dog people. We need all the houndsmen we can get these days, regardless of their chosen game or how they choose to catch it.

I grew up hunting the same river bottoms as my childhood hero, Jerry Clower, and I still visit his grave occasionally. One thing Jerry said in a joke early on was you've got to give it a sporting chance. To me, running something to tree is more of a sporting chance. It's animal against animal, more or less one on one, and survival of the fittest. In most cases, brain over brawn.

But that's just my opinion. Regardless, I still want to experience one of those good bobcat races done right.

Larry


THE DOGBOY WRITES:

Mr. Larry, I encourage you to call Macedonia Mule Man and to go see him.

#1. He is Close by.
#2. He is one heck of a nice fellow according to Mr. Harold Parker. (maybe you can visit him when Harold is down on a Hunt and Kill two Birds with one stone)
#3. You can find out 1st hand from Him that it is never a SURE thing that a Bobcat is caught!(the Bobcat holds all the Cards in eluding a pack of Hounds, a Sporting Chance, the Cat holds Odds that would make a Vegas Bookie blush)

Now you were being modest in an earlier post, we do hear that you too are a heck of a nice Fellow who does KNOW what a good Hound is. So maybe we are wrong to encourage you to try Bobcat Hunting.

Reliable sources (people who Bobcat Hunt and are in Law Enforcement) tell us that Listening to one of these Bobcat Races where the Cat is back and forth across the road…….where 6 to 12 Hounds sound like they are literally pulling the Cat’s Short Tail…….well they tell us that it is like taking a hit of Crystal Meth…….one time and you are HOOKED for life.

Fellows like Big N Blue have tried to quit, but it just don’t work.

Again take big N Blue he has to go to the AZ Blue River Rehab Center once a year for his annual “Methadone” treatment (that is Houndspeak for Lion Hunting).

If you like Big mouths, trailing, and having a Quarry who will get away if given the slightest mistake by a Pack of Hounds. Plus a dose of Hound Music with an INTENSEITY that NO other Hound Race will have….then go up to James’s or come to Florida and prepare to get Hooked!

If you do, to quote your friend Jerry Clower telling of a Cat Race ole Marcel Ledbetter had which ended with Marcell up in the tree trying to make the Cat jump out. You too might have to say “Shoot up here amongst us….one of us needs some relief!”

Dad and I have sure enjoyed this exchange, thanks to everyone for the kind words, to Larry and all “Good Luck and Come when you can”!

Carey J. Clay
Dads dogboy