BigGameHoundsmen.com

There is an article on the last page of December '07 FUR FISH GAME that sure spoke my mind (it is just inside the back cover). Except for the specific examples, I could have wrote the thing, in fact, at one point on Shade Tree I did. It wasn't well received and made one guy so mad he went away and never came back (sorry about that). It makes me feel a little less lonely that I am not the only one that thinks this way. It took me most of my life to get to that point, but in the last few years it is exactly the conclusion I have come to for trying to come up with the ultimate bobcat dog for specific regional needs. The ingredients of the formula would vary from region to region, but the principles would remain.

Check it out. It is only a few paragraphs long, you could stand there and read it in a couple minutes.

there is a lot wrong w/ the article. mostly because the guy really doesn't know that much.
for instance to get true "hybrid" vigor you have to cross very dissimilar types like scenthound (or cur) & sighthound or scenthound & bulldog. since most dogs within a type share the same health issues crossing different breeds within the type yield no more significant health nor performance advantage than good purebreeding.
which brings up another point, to be really effective crossbreeding requires good purebreds w/ strong reproductive ability. throwing just any two walkers together isn't normally going to give you top of the line bobcat dogs. likewise throwing together just any hound & any bulldog isn't going to give you a supercoldnosed dog that can also catch the hogs. heck putting together the best hound & the best bulldog money can buy isn't likely to produce that because this type of cross tends to have canceling effects, you lose some nose & don't always get the full bully hardness. OTH bull or terrier crosses to sighthound tend to be cumulative that is they keep most of the positives of both breeds. however you need to watch for crosses that synergize (synergy basically means 1+1=3) as they can be very difficult to handle but the result can be performance gold. for example the bull & terriers were so incredibly powerful performers that they drove the pure bulldog from the box & the pure terriers from the ratting pit.
in a nutshell, to be a good crossbreeder (not just a lucky one) you have to understand what traits specific breeds posses (not magazine add baloney), what they tend to pass on, what they cancel with, what they accumulate with & what they synergize with. then you need to have access to superior pure stock and an eye for what individual lines & dogs are going to give you in a cross. in other words it requires all the depth of knowledge it takes to be a good purebreeder plus. unfortunately because of the article even more doofuses will be spitting out mediocre or worse dogs but at least they won't have pretty papers pushing up price tags.

Pops you are awesome

Pops, You are the guy then. What are you waiting for.

Have you studied the Lurchers of the british Isles. I haven't really accept to read two books about them. According to these books, You cannot predict the cross that is going to produce the dog of a lifetime. (but what breeding program can?) BUT they say any old race track reject greyhound with any old pure bred collie has as much chance of producing that dog as any other cross you could study your whole lifetime befor making. Most of the dogs from these random crosses produce good Lurchers, and sometimes they get that remarkable dog that goes a bit beyond the normal good lurcher.

My interest in crossbreeds, yes of very different type dogs, comes from my interest in bobcat hunting. The best bobcat dogs I have witnessed were crossbred dogs.

If you want a fox dog, you have many types of fox dog to choose from that all have been purebred for over a hundred years, and in some cases closer to a thousand years. They flat get the job done. When it comes to bobcat dogs, you have nothing of the kind. There are a couple regions that have come up with solutions, but they dont transfer well to certain other areas.

I got to raise, train, and hunt with a crossbred dog from very different tyoe dogs that pretty much ruined me forever. When I was young, Tom Barnes said to me "Dave, bobcat hunting is just like coon hunting when you have the right dogs." Well, I eventually saw it with my own eyes.
This dog could virtually catch a bobcat on the ground anytime she felf like it. She was not perfect, but it showed me that we really dont have a breed of bobcat dogs. Some where among the canines is the formula for dogs that can do this. I gurantee it will not be a pure bred hound.

All our coon hound breeds except Plotts are down from fox hounds, and many Plotts today might as well be, because of the the hound blood they now carry. The basic canine instinct is to hunt down it's prey and catch it. A lot of years, and unlimited funds went into breeding dogs that would not do this. They are called fox hounds. When you spend half the day getting your horses and hunting party together, you dont want the day to be over in a fifteen minute chase. The dogs we are trying to catch bobcats with are at their core, dogs that do not catch things but that trail them ad nausium. Now, people have tried to temper that with crosses that would make some hounds actually want to catch something, but in my opinion, they are greatly hanicapped by the centuries of breeding for exactly the opposite, which is at the foundation of this type dog.

If a dog puts his nose down and trails a Lion forever, eventually, he is going to bump into the animal with it's undersized lungs, and make it uncomfortable enough to stop, or climb up something. This is really, really inneffective for bobcats in regions where they refuse to climb most of the time, or will not climb until the instant befor they feel teeth in their butt.

Study of a subject can be a good thing. But the dog in questing was not the result of a lot to study other than reading a couple books about Lurchers and the rather hap-hazard way the best Lurchers were bred.
Evidently, the man mentioned in the article has come up with something that works really good for hogs. Heck, if he has never even heard the term "hybrid vigor" or "synergy" dont matter much to me if he has found a way to cross dogs that flat get the job done.

It's too late for me, I am afraid. But myself, I hope the article, by the guy that doesnt know that much, would inspire a bunch of other dumb guys like me to do a little experimenting with cross bred dogs for bobcats. I am very confident that if I had seen this cross bred bobcat dog as a young man, that my search for bobcat dogs would have been very different, and I would not have wasted so much time trying to find them among pure bred hounds.

I agree with Mr. pacojack, for sure. And if I had not quit dogs, I'd be asking for your phone number Pops. Even if I dont agree with you on every point, I can see there is a lot I could learn from you. In fact, I have never seen anything like a commentary on cross bred hunting dogs like the one you gave. Who are you anyway?

So if I follow what you are saying,the closer a hound gets genetically to a foxhound the less effective it will be at catching bobcats or any game.Therefore a Walker would poosibly be the least effective of all the tree hounds.

david wrote: I gurantee it will not be a pure bred hound.

David Why dont you put your money where your mouth is. I have caught 5 Bobcats in the last week with pure bred hounds.Why dont you bring those cross bred dogs out here in the desert and we will have us a little contest. Looser shoots his dogs.
Usualy I have been impressed with your knowledge of breeding but you are off your frigin rocker now.
Anyone that guarentees something about breeding is a complete idiot, there is no guarentee.(or you would be a rich man) You my freind have proven to me that you need to pull your head out of that book you are reading and then pull both of them out of your butt.Your not getting enough oxegen to your little brain.

Sorry to disagree with you David. But I know several fantastic bobcat dogs. All but one is purebred.

I like a crossbred dog alot of the time depending on what exactly a man is crossing. I dont agree with everything neither man said but I have nothing against a crossbred dog and I do believe that crossing certain types of dogs ends with better results.

Coyote catching for example. I "CATCH" more coyotes with dogs that are half hound half gritty cur than I can with either of the dogs pure. I dont know why for sure but I do know that it has proven true for 4 years now.

Devin

Shouldn't you be out cranking coyotes with your new job, how can you find the time to stack up cats like that.

I'm just a dumbass, but I'd can bet that desert cats are a bit different game than the area David used to hunt. For one thing, there aren't nearly as many. Not even close. You've sometime got to cut a long time to find a track, if you can beat somebody else to it.

David and the guys he used to hunt with, aren't a bunch of newbies. They've stacked up a lot of cats, for a lot of years when numerous other guys couldn't. I wouldn't take everthing they say as the flat out gospel, but I definately perk up and listen when they've got something to say. If something worked well, they'd probably be using it.

Nolte wrote:Devin

Shouldn't you be out cranking coyotes with your new job, how can you find the time to stack up cats like that.

I'm just a dumbass, but I'd can bet that desert cats are a bit different game than the area David used to hunt. For one thing, there aren't nearly as many. Not even close. You've sometime got to cut a long time to find a track, if you can beat somebody else to it.

David and the guys he used to hunt with, aren't a bunch of newbies. They've stacked up a lot of cats, for a lot of years when numerous other guys couldn't. I wouldn't take everthing they say as the flat out gospel, but I definately perk up and listen when they've got something to say. If something worked well, they'd probably be using it.

I dont start til the end of this month.
Like My father always told me " the more practice you have the better you will be".So if he has that hard of time finding a track then I wouldn't put to much stock in his dogs.
I like you have always enjoyed reading his stuff about breeding but he is plum crazy now. Like I said before, when a guy can guarentee to have the best dogs in the world and garantee his breeding to be the best, then in my oppinion he has lost it.
By the way Nolte I'm not just doing coyotes I will be doing cats,Lion and bear as well, but thanks for your concern with my job.And to answer your question, hunt everyday and you can catch the game too, even a blind squirel can find a nut once in a while, like I have done And try some pure bred walkers,that always helps.

Mr.pacojack wrote: And try some pure bred walkers,that always helps.

I thought we were talking cat hunting, not nite hunts. Just ribbin ya, I've got a yard full of all sorts of colors, even a few white ones. A buddy of mine runs all white and stacks up bear with the best of them. Might be hard pressed to find papers on them though.

I think you're missing what David was trying to say. He never said his dogs were the best, breeding was the best, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't even have a dog at the moment. He just said if he was looking for a bobcat dog it wouldn't be a hound/or purebred. And that it might be worth a look elsewhere to find the bobcat dog you're looking for.

Mr.pacojack wrote: So if he has that hard of time finding a track then I wouldn't put to much stock in his dogs. :

Well I wouldn't put much stock in 40 different hound guys around us last Sat, cause NOBODY cut a fresh track in 100+ square miles of country. We must all be dipshits, even though I had cut a half dozen tracks in a smaller portion of that country the weekend before.

I know David and guys he used to hunt with have been out West and caught cats, lions, bear in a few different spots without much hangup. I'll be the first guy in line to see some Purebred White power come here to stack up the cats. If you were to rack up 5 in a week here in average conditions, I'd be WAY more than impressed.

I know the guy that is catching the cats always has the best conditions. I have heard it all my life. We get it from Arizona guys the most, kind of supprised I would here it come from your way.
I cant help it when you dont cut a track and I do but that doesnt make your dogs from there better, plain and simple it just means you don't have as many cats as we do, it doesn't make them any harder to run, it just means you dont have as many cats.
A dog that doesn't get the chance to run as many cats doesn't make him a better dog, in fact I would rather have a dog that has been in a mess of cats rather than one that hasn't had a chance to run that many.Wouldn't you?If you were buying a dog which would you choose?
Conditions have been good for us here lately, should I stay home and wait for them to get bad? Or should I get them out and run them ?Which would you do?

Mr.pacojack wrote:A dog that doesn't get the chance to run as many cats doesn't make him a better dog, in fact I would rather have a dog that has been in a mess of cats rather than one that hasn't had a chance to run that many.Wouldn't you?If you were buying a dog which would you choose?
Conditions have been good for us here lately, should I stay home and wait for them to get bad? Or should I get them out and run them ?Which would you do?

Devin
I've never waited for conditions in my life, I go whenever I get the chance. With that said, conditions/terrain plain a MAJOR factor in catching game in the winter. You know that. I just don't think I'm Dale Lee when conditions are mint and catching is easier than normal.

If I was looking for a cat dog, I'd look for one that can get it done in the area I was going to be hunting. I kNOW those guy had dogs that could catch cats HERE. They also had dogs that could catch out WEST. You obviously have dogs that can catch out THERE, can you say the same about HERE. The critter might be the same, but it's a whole different game.

Keep Piling up the cats and good luck with your new job.

[quote="Nolte"]
They also had dogs that could catch out WEST. You obviously have dogs that can catch out THERE, can you say the same about HERE. The critter might be the same, but it's a whole different game.

quote]The game is the same my freind, you see I am no Newbie to this game either, I have hunted hounds all my life as did my Dad and His Dad And His Dad. I have hunted cats back east down south and even in old Mexico. We have sold dogs to guys in Argentina , Canada and even Africa. I have even hunted cats in Asia.And the only thing different is the playing feild.
I have hunted with almost every different kind of houndsman you can think of,from terriers to mutts and the most successful houndsmen are the one that either keep their hounds or dogs pure whether it be ukc,akc or their own records or they pay top dollar to ship thier dogs in and don't worry about breeding any of them.
Let me ask you something, how long is your hunting season for cats back there? We hunt cats year round, now tell me agian where you would like to get your dogs from
You mention Dale Lee, why do you think he was so successful? Could it be he was running his pure bred hounds or was it because he was hunting year round on cats? or was it a combonation of both? Either way its not agreeing with you . Before you go off on how Dale ran what ever, I have ads from Dale in the 60's and 70's of their pure bred UKC English Blues and Reds. I can send them to you if you would like?

If mr pacojack used to have some respect for me, I sure am glad I got him streightened out on that.

I am trying to wean myself away from this board because visiting it is just like an recovering alchoholic paying a casual visit to the bar. It is not good for my peace of mind. Yet, sometimes I just want to share some things I have learned with someone that might benefit from the knowledge befor I disapear like I am trying to. The knowledge was very very expensive, and if I could offer it at a discount price to some one that could use it, I like that idea.

In effect, I am writing it for me. If by some science fiction time warp I find myself reading this board when I am a young man of 20, I am simply leaving a few bits here for myself. Plan B is that just in case there is some young man now who is like I was when I was 20 and hungry for knowledge and unable to find it.

I hunted bobcats in Oregon. That is where I caught this horrible bug that pretty much destroyed my life. I did a lot of study and a lot of driving and came up with a line of dogs that I am hearing from Jcathunter are still around out there, and still showing the same traits. I hunted mostly the coast. The dogs were not everything I wanted and I let them go. I did not hunt the desert or the Cascades too much, but when I did, my success rate was 100%. With the same dogs in the coast hills, my success rate was about 40%. That was not good enough for me. These were pure bred, papered Walkers.

Through a bunch of lies that were fed to me by an employer about great hunting and guiding opportunities that he was going to give me based in Wisconsin, I moved here. My marriage fell apart, and I will not leave my children, so I have been stuck here ever since. I left some of the best bobcat hunting in the world, for what is almost the worst, in my opinion and limited experience. The only thing worse would be no bobcats at all, and in reality, that would have been a lot better for my life in general. To get a dog on 100 bobcat races in western Oregon could realistically be done in two months. To get a dog on 100 bobcat races out here could easily take five years, and most dogs used on bobcat out here will not see that many races in their entire life. Most dogs would be lucky to see 40 races in their life. You are correct in thinking it might be hard to make a bobcat dog out here.

Because of that, I have traveled to Oregon and purchased seasoned bobcat dogs to bring out here after hunting with them in Oregon, and California. I cant explain it. These are good dogs out there. They never, in my experience, make good dogs out here. It has pretty much been a waste of money and time.

I was a Walker man from the beginning. I appreciate Walkers tremendously. Actually, I am kind of sick of them now, just because I have experienced dogs that make hunting more fun for me because of a different attitude, and much better handling and ease of breaking.

The dogs I hunted with out here have mostly been Walkers. They can and do catch cats. May hat is always off to the men who were responsible for breeding up those dogs. It is so amazing that in the competition world, they continue to dominate decade after decade. Back in the late 70's I was predicting that the English dogs would over take the Walkers because they were single registering some amazing dogs that the pure breed snobs would not look at. I was completely wrong, and the pure beed snobs were completely right. I understand the value of pure breeding practices. I have hunted with some great great walker dogs. They have my untmost respect.

But now, David, If you are reading this, it's from me (you, thirty years from now). I want to tell you about a dog. I will not hide anything because I am quiting hunting now and I want you to benifit from knowing about this dog. I can not explain all the why's because I do not know them. I can not tell you exactly how to apply any of these factors, because I dont know if any of it can be repeated. Yet I will tell you about it and it might give you something to experiment with, because I want you to see something like this dog befor you get old.

First, read up on the Lurchers. Understand that having a line that continually produces good dogs was never enjoyed by the Lurcher hunters. The dogs could not be repeated except to continue making the cross breed crosses that would produce the dogs for one generation. They had to be satisfied with this because no other dog could meet the demands of the particular game and hunting style that they were forced to use. When they needed another dog, they had to go back to the cross, or the type of cross breeding that produced the one they were trying to replace. They accepted this. They had to. There was not other way.

Next, study the herding dogs. Herding is merely a very refined hunting iinstinct. Watch these dogs work. Get into their minds. Study they way they think. How do they "hunt" sheep and cattle? From behind? From in front? When a sheep is heading for an open gate he is not supposed to go through, what does the dog do? Chase him or Get around in front of him and get to the gate befor the sheep does? Correct. Remember, remember that. Remember that. He is not trailing the sheep, he is catching it by getting to where it is going befor the sheep gets there. Remember that. Remember that.

Next, consider this dog. She was a mixed bred dog. Not a hybrid. Her mother was a hybrid between a Plott and a border collie. A good squirrel dog that could tree her own game at a young age. Her Father was a dog that was leopard spotted. And unusually good dog. In his background is Leopard cur, Stephens cur, and Walker, and who knows what else. He was bred by a reclusive secretive breeder that I consider possibly a breeding genius. I dont know for sure as it is so hard to learn about him.

This female was leopard spotted, had a good heavy coat of hair, but not "long hair". As a puppy, she showed the border collie intellegence, and the "eye". She almost never barked on her chain, but was always watching, watching, studying everything. She was not automatic like all the good walkers I have trained. She learned. She learned what I wanted. She learned what I liked. She wanted to please me, and so she did what I liked. She learned every time I worked with her. She Enjoyed treeing and would stay treed all night. She enjoyed trailing also. But she learned that trailing was not always the most effective way to catch something. She could trail very fast, and when the scent was good, she would trail with her head up, looking. And she developed almost like a "sixth sense" for where the cat was or would be. I spent my time in the woods with her. Not on the road, and not in the truck. Yet it is still hard to put your eyes on the dog in heavy brush. Yet I got to see her at times and even got to witness the catch on two occasions. One of them was unexplainable. She was no where near the track. floated by me. Stopped to accnowledge my presence, licked one of her feet that was bugging her, looked off to the North and floated away. 30 seconds later, she had the cat. The other two dogs got to her and that was that. One more satisfied customer. I gotta beleive that it was just coincedence, and the cat chose this direction and not the dog, but that cat got stopped about thirty feet from where I was standing. But if someday in heaven me and God are talking dogs and He tells me that she herded that cat to my feet, I wont be all that surprised.

This dog made some very good walker dogs look not very good. She never had 100 bobcat races to draw from either. She caught solo the fourth bobcat she was ever on, and I could see the difference in her on the first bobcat she was ever on. It made me realize there is more out there. There is a formula for bobcat dogs that has not been tapped. Or it probably has, but whoever has it aint talking. I probably wouldn't be talking either except that now I can read this as a 20 year old, and possibly get myself on a little different course befor I get so old and in debt.

If anyone else happens to be reading this message to my young self and you are offended by it I am sorry if I have offended you. Just ignore it. It is not for you. If there is someone reading this who is young and somehow captured by the need to succesfully pursue bobcats with dogs, and is not offended by this, but finds it interesting: you are welcome to these words as if I was not writing them to me but to you.

Nolte, hope I can meet you some day.