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I hope we can have a nice debate about this. I know folks say the dry ground lion dogs have awful cold noses, I also know in frozen ground five months out of the year, and a lot of rivers and Ice, and your average hunting conditions are around 10 degrees, changing snow and temp all winter, takes a darn good nose to. My question is on average? Not the stories of jumping a lion in 110 degree's, or a bobcat in -20 below, or lion for all that goes. I've got a dry ground line out of Arizona, I crossed to mine, this winter will give me an idea of their noses compared to what I have now in the same conditons. whats your imput?

I think their noses would get colder the more they stick them in the snow!

Ron, here is my two cents, I think a cold nose strain of dogs is just that most of the dogs from a proven cold nose cross will be cold nosed where ever they are (raised, trained and aclaimated). You start taking older cold nosed proven hounds from one part of the country to the other and and dump them out on different types of track conditions and for the most part a person will be real disapointed. I do have to say some cold nosed strains are the track stradling type of dog and this does make for a decent lion hound but will never make the grade when it comes to bobcats, so a person must choose his strain wisely for what he is wanting to use them for. later, Andy

Having hunted in about every condition from snow and -temperature to 100 degrees in all kinds of terrain as well as habit type I can say dry or bare ground is the most challenging A smart hound learns how to work a track in the snow and will use their eyes as much as they use their nose, granted a froze in track has some difficulty but, none that compare to a dry ground track. I love the snow for training young hounds it gives me the opportunity to get them broke as well as on a high number of lions before summer hits and the bare ground struggles begin. I won't discount a snow dogs ability but unless you have put your hounds to the test in all conditions you will never know what you have. I will compare a snow track to a hot bear race with my hounds. you turn them down a track and the next time you hear them their treed! that doesn't happen often on bare ground for the most part you are with them through out the whole trailing process until the jump if you make it to that point and they better be broke-broke or it's over before it started. I resist commenting on any of these types of posts because of the way people react but, I have been there and there is NO comparison like it or not I can only write of what I know about it and I won't sugar coat it as to not hurt someones pride or feelings!

sourdough

Conejos,

I will tell you one thing for sure my nose sure as hell gets colder when it snows. LOL!

I think Twist and Sourdough both have great comments!

I have hunted all of it and a good dog is a good dog but bare ground will require a bit more of a hound to make it happen consistantly. I had two tracks over the last couple of days that were not good becasue they were older on mostly bare ground and rock. I am rather confident I would have run both of them if they had been made in snow. I have a very good knowledge of the area and know where to move up and cut them and with the added advantage of seeing the tracks to connect the dots I most likley would have at least got them jumped but maybe not caught. Not to say a good cold nosed snow dog might not have done better on this than my old rock lickers because he very well might have and made me look like a clown. LOL! And I am sure there are a number of good dirt dogs out there that would have moved these tracks where mine couldn't, but I know one dang thing for sure I couldn't help them a bit and they couldn't see a track either, but if I could have or the dogs could have things would have worked out better.

Just my 2cents, not worth much. LOL!

Thanks you guys some good imput, to me its a never ending mystery. Again, good snow is hard to beat, and easy to catch game, but the ice and snow ice, cold temp, made me wonder in comparision. Carey Clay ( dads dog boy) was up this summer, wanting to see some bear, in a tree. Turned on a bear bait, nice loud race, hit and miss a little but not much, crossed the river, and an hour later treed. These trashy mutts treed a big tom bobcat, got to looking in the bait, it was the only track. Of course I told Carey, hell even these WI bear dog mutts can tree a dam cat The best cat race I have ever heard up here, go figure. It happened twice this summer, my current opinion Which may change daily would be around here, with the water etc, bobs seem to be easier to run on dirt The flip side, dogs that look good all summer jumping bear, when kill season comes in the fall, and the leaves drop, the frost sets in, the same dog cant jump but a few of the tracks, you find out what dogs have noses then.
Andy I agree with what you said, track strattlers dont cut it for bear or bobcat here, its a real challenge to incorporate lines that can not only cold trail, catch and stay with a bad bear, but to do the same and catch a cat, a real challenge
sincerely
Confused

I have heard that it is tough to run cold tracks in the dry dirt. But from what I have seen from running coyotes in the winter is that when the its really cold out the snow gets really dry and doesn't hold as much scent, and the hounds start having trouble cold trailing. But I have never run on dry dirt conditions so I don't know for sure which one is easier for hounds to cold trail on.

1280 wrote:I have heard that it is tough to run cold tracks in the dry dirt. But from what I have seen from running coyotes in the winter is that when the its really cold out the snow gets really dry and doesn't hold as much scent, and the hounds start having trouble cold trailing. But I have never run on dry dirt conditions so I don't know for sure which one is easier for hounds to cold trail on.

Well I know we hit the different snow conditions and temp, and its not easy to jump game some days, these guys desert hunting, with some wind and sun, that has got to be a real test of nose also, probably why they sometimes even mix a little blood hound in some of them. Cant imagine there is to much scent left on a rock, and dry dirt ? As mike said, in snow at least you can follow or cast out and try and cut the track again. Which some days isnt as easy as it sounds to find a bobcat in a bunch of coyote and deer, LOL, but some days luck shines and you do, an advantage for sure. I suppose a lion track in a elk heard might be challenging also.

Sourdough I respect your opinion, thanks for posting it. As I've said, I'm quite satisfied with my line, I'm also opened minded, and wise enough to accept opinions, from good hunters, that is why I have outcrossed to a dry ground line. I shipped in two. The male I hunted on bear all summer, at a year and a half old, He is fast, burn a track, been in some battles, on bear, and seemed to back off a little, so the grit, time will tell. the bitch I bred to my stud and line as he is getting older, I'm keeping five pups, as four is males. I will be happy to maintain the noses I have, if more nose is added, it will be a bonus, you western boys cant all be fibbing The flip side, I also crossed out to an old time trigg line, and kept five, which are six months old now and ready to hunt. Talk about making a three year headache, with all these pups, to sort through and get trained So I'm experiementing, while willy is alive, He is my lifetime foundation, that works here, Kind of fun to try something new with these outcrosses

I don't have enough experience in real cold/snow to offer an opinion on the main topic here, but it seems to me that you ought to go ahead and linebreed your foundation stud to one of his daughters or granddaughters or nieces to ensure the continuation of your current line in case neither one of the outcrosses work. Like you said, your already gonna have a headache, how much worse could one more litter make it.LOL

Good luck.

Bill A. Brockman

I hope that the dry ground line you have chosen will be a good fit and compliment what you already have. I have done the same thing as you are doing not so much as attempting to get more nose but to at least maintain the nose I have while adding some track speed. Bare ground cold trailing is about time and distance! by understanding a cats behavior the the need for a track to track style of hound is necessary, But what if you have both speed and nose? You catch lion like the one in chase'in tails video. His style of hound as well as others in the south west are not the hound of old they are compact small agile hounds with both track speed and nose. Cold trailing type hounds are becoming a thing of the past as most folk don't have the time nor the want to to wait for a hound to trail down a track for hours when there are medium nosed hounds that won't take the type of track I am talking about and if you have a lot of game that type of hound is great and more suited for the week end, holiday hunter! Good luck on your project get as many of those pups as you can in the hands of hunter that you know will put them through the test.

sourdough

Bill I agree with what you have said, I had set myself up to breed his daughters, like a dam fool a guy came along with a lot of money and bought them last fall, I let them go. I made the agreement for him to hunt them until this winter, and bring one back to breed, that I wanted to continue the line, well she got killed three weeks ago on a bear. LOL. So, I have the two litters on the ground and just praying he is alive in another six months, to bring him back to a daughter. If not, I can breed half brother and sisters three ways. So I'm not in to bad of shape. I've only bred when I needed dogs, so he was bred twice before the two litters now, and threw some good ones. I guess maybe a little change of heart, as I usually never sold pups. only trained dogs, and that was my market, and I never sold one locally, always east as i dont want to hunt againist this line. Change of heart again, sold one locally, to a friend, but with a strict breeding contract, and the other one is 4 hours west, so not a problem either. And If i kick the bucket, every man for himself They can do what they want with them.

Sourdough, I agree with your opinion. I have sold four triggs x willy, to hard hunters, they like them so far, two for cat dogs in the south, and two for bobcat, bear dogs in the s.e. Their only six months old, but full of promise I sold two males of the second litter to guys here, hard hunters and judge dogs. When Nick picked his up, I said give this line a try and dont make excuses for him, if he doesnt work, I will replace him, I feel a lot of confidence, now its up to these guys, which their all good houndsmen. We have a lot of bear here, and when you need a real bear jump dog is the last week or two of our kill season. Frost, bear not moving, you may have one bait hit that day, and in the fall, they seem to wonder for miles before a jump. And for bobs, We have a few, but you can go for two or three days, and not have a track, or have one shot at one and that is it, so you better have a dam, cold nose, smart, fast cold trailer. I bred to the dry ground trying to maintain the noses I require to hunt here, hoping not to loose nothing, and a bonus if i get more yes so far on bear, they move a track, like i have now, so things should be fine. I was very worried about grit, and at ten weeks old three of the five pups, started baying a rib cage off a deer, i threw in the puppy pen, so i should be fine there. Yes, I have video of it boys But again, I'm always open to a line which gets the job done, in the area we hunt,

The debate goes on ...Ive seen some very cold nosed dogs dry ground lion dogs in my time.I even owned one or two...I had a couple that that were worthless in the snow...Id have a lion caught and was walking out and those dogs would still be trailing...I think those dogs just liked to smell lion scent...I believe that if a dog has it upstairs,it will be a good snow or dry ground dog....I had one dog thhat was great in both areas...I think that if you have a dog that has the desire and work ethic to catch game, it will adapt to whatever terrain you put in on...I mean think about it....I had a dog that I bought off a lion study in Idaho...Bunch of lions all snow...Fastest lion dog on snow I ever had...Brought her out here and took her out horseback...She looked lost...My good dog hit a track and this dog was all over trying to smell what she smelled...We ended up catching that lion. From then on, I watched that dog learn how to catch dry ground lions... That dog wanted to catch lions...That was her gig...

I think that if you are throwing your dogs out on fresh lion tracks and are catching lions within an hour or so, I dont call that tenacity...If you have dogs that are catching lions on 2 day old snowed in lion tracks .I call that tenacity ... or luck if you have only done it once.. ...I think that type of dog has the same nose as a good dry ground dog, but does it have the ability to adapt and use it on dry ground...Its the same thing with a dry ground dog going to snow..I dont think its a 100 % thing all the time, but if you have a good minded dog that desires to catch, and is doing it consistantly....NOT JUST SMELL AND BARK.... I think a guy would be able to sack up lions in dry ground and snow if you give the dog time to adapt... Ther you go,another country heard from... Good luck to ya....Coop

A cold nose dog is colded nosed any where. Snow takes a lot of work out of it. You have to trust the dogs more on bare ground. It is harder to train a bare ground dog and takes longer but one train on bare ground can go back and forth, one trained on snow may not. I live where it seldom snows and rains a lot. I just got back form hunting in 5 to 30 degree weather and snow the dogs did great. I had trouble telling how old a track was in the dry powder snow but the dogs let me know. The cats were easy compared to bare ground hunting. People get confused calling a dog cold nosed that will hammer a track and not get any where compared to a dog that runs a cold track and not opening as much. Different styles of dogs. Each to his own both have there place. Dewey

Hell Dewy, anyone can go catch cats with that line of dogs you got, why dont you go try it with these bear bred, want to be cat dogs, mutts we got

+1 Coop