BigGameHoundsmen.com

I've thought about this several times, with mixed feelings. A high percent of dogs I have owned or hunted over has been non papered dogs. The papered dogs i have owned, I never registered anyway. My opinion is partially this. I believe papered dogs, isnt breeding the best line to best line, with balanced qualities, especially now days. To keep the papers, your accepting faults also. Voice, feet, tree happy etc, in some cases. I dont breed good hank and hanna. I breed line to line and everything around the dog, and its history of dogs. I have owned or hunted over 6 generations of these dogs,on both sides. I just outcrossed these walkers to a old time hunting trigg line,why, because you can never have enough bottom or feet, neither is a fault in this line now. I may only end up 1/4 trigg, or so, but again, breeding hounds that work the best,trail and catch game, so why papers, are we getting the best hound?I dam sure dont have any problem selling these dogs without papers. What is your opinions?

well last time i checked papers didnt catch a thing. its not always the case but more times than not registered dogs get name bred. i have one papered dog here but the papers are just put up. only two of my 5 are pure bred anyway. i catch alot more game with mixed up dogs and seems to be that when i breed top dog to top dog i get better off spring. i tried the whole pure bred papered thing for a long time and honestly caught less game than with my mixed dogs. some say its easier to sale a papered dog but i have an easier time selling a dog that performs. for instance i'm expecting a litter of 3/4 walker 1/4 plott the middle of april. out of two top dogs. i would rather have jacked up looking dog that will do what i expect rather than papers to attempt to back its ability.

i keep my own papers if they dont perform they dont get bred simple as that . me and a buddy had a dog he paid 350 for as a puppy i give him a start dog because he didnt have one so the pup got shifted over to me even though he liked her i think more because of the price he paid .she turned out very mediocre and i said i was going to cull her he wanted her back so i gave him the dog but i tore up the papers just in case. he ended up getting her bred two different times by good dogs the pups turned out crap. at least they werent papered i guess he learned his lesson though , because i made him do the culling even though he asked me to help. i told him not to breed her .he learned that its easier to breed two good dogs together then it is to breed crap and waste time and have the heartache of culling a bunch of dogs versus one here and there.when you see these thorough bred race horses snapping there legs like barboro for instance makes me wonder if the gene pools are getting to thin and maybe a little something needs to be added . im all for single registry in dogs for that reason .people like to think they know what their buying thats where papers come in i guess .a breeder likes to have some validation on papers to for all his hard work .

So is it the papering of dogs that's the issue or the poor breeding of dogs that is? Should we burn all the history books and go back to word of mouth? There are many people breeding dogs both papered and not that shouldn't be. If this is about not being able to register crossbred dogs, not only is that a poor arguement, but it isn't true. The hypocracy of the initial post is that when a person says "Walker" or "Trigg", they are refering to a line of once registered (PAPERED!!) dogs and those are what the foundation of the line is weather documentation has been kept or discarded in future endeavors. It comes down to the good breeder and weather or not he wants to keep formal history and not that formal history makes poor dogs.

Papers don't make dogs but they don't diminish a dog either.The breeders I respect are those who KNOW their genetic material and can duplicate it for 20,30......50 years.Most men who have achieved that kind of success learned that a paper trail is a valuable tool in the science of genetics,not only that but it is an absolute necessity if you want to preserve that knowledge for future generations.Unfortunately,not all papered dogs are the product of breeders with integrity, dedication and knowledge but that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.I can't understand why someone would think that documentation of a dogs genetic back ground would be a bad thing ? The purpose of purebred registries is to fix specific traits.The goal of all breeding should be to fix traits to the degree that the outcome is predictable and consistent.I doubt anyone has achieved consistency in their dogs over an extended period of time,by breeding best to best regardless of breed.Short term results of best to best can be very good,long term....not so good.Not saying that crossed up dogs can't be good generations down the line but FIXING the traits you want is going to be difficult.

any dog that gets it done i like, papers or no papers. that being said i believe that papers do provide incentive to breed lesser dogs. i have just seen to many instances where papers sold pups when in reality their parents were not any count. alot of this was done for money. there are good papered and grade dogs bred but i believe that there are more papered dogs bred that arent much count with the intent of selling puppies. the accuracy of papers is also a concern of mine. im not saying this does not happen in grade dogs but not as much.

lol look at one name for mixed dogs that held true. mathes. now i'm sure he kept documentation. shoot i keep documentation on my cross bred dogs. my biggest problem with papered dogs would be the irresponsible breeders. some fool thinks he can name match and won't cull just cause of a name coming up multiple times in one set of papers is crazy. i don't have a problem with breeding two top registered bear dogs but, i do have a problem with a big name dog bred to a crap dog just cause they have similar pedigrees. i would rather have two top dogs with similar traits and diff colors.

plottpappaw wrote: my biggest problem with papered dogs would be the irresponsible breeders. some fool thinks he can name match and won't cull just cause of a name coming up multiple times in one set of papers is crazy. i don't have a problem with breeding two top registered bear dogs but, i do have a problem with a big name dog bred to a crap dog just cause they have similar pedigrees. i would rather have two top dogs with similar traits and diff colors.

This does not just happen to registered dogs, we are seeing it happen with grade dogs too. And On this board we see it alot more in grade dogs than registered dogs. For example, Jeff Allen dogs are popping up all over this board that are not registered and they are just breeding the name. I doubt anyone of these "breeders" hunt the parents as hard as Jeff does, they just breed the Jeff Allen name.And there are many many more names of biggame hunters of the past that are being slung around this board.
Cat and Bear, I do think you can have too much leg and bottom, If you don't have the rest to go with the leg and bottom, all you have is a idiot running around.
Trueblue and Colbalt, very well said.
It is hard to make a cake without the Reciepe, it can be done but to make it great time after time, you might want to use the reciepe.
I have UKC dogs and grade dogs and I can show you a pedigree on everyone of them. They just show me a map of what others have been successful with before I got the line. Helps me figure out what dogs have put what into the breed and which way I want to go. Nothing more and nothing less for me. Just a Road map of my dogs that I and others have made.

PAPER SMAPER Why would anyone want to buy a hound with-out hunting behind it first .
And sometimes people wonder WHY there are so MANY CRAP CULL hounds out there

Folks as most of you know this a subject near and dear to Dad and I!

The below listed posts reflect lots of years thoughts and experiences from what must be Houndsmen who spend more time in the Woods than @ their Keyboards!

Trueblue wrote: “The breeders I respect are those who KNOW their genetic material and can duplicate it for 20,30......50 years. Most men who have achieved that kind of success learned that a paper trail is a valuable tool in the science of genetics, not only that but it is an absolute necessity if you want to preserve that knowledge for future generations”.

Mr. Pacojack wrote: “Trueblue and Colbalt, very well said.
It is hard to make a cake without the Recipe, it can be done but to make it great time after time, you might want to use the recipe.”

Plottpappaw wrote: “my biggest problem with papered dogs would be the irresponsible breeders. some fool thinks he can name match and won't cull just cause of a name coming up multiple times in one set of papers is crazy”.

To Dad (and now me) the 50+ years of pedigree (translate that to mean Papers) behind Dads Hounds is why in the last 6 years with 11 litters of Pups (Thoughtfully Planned Matings all) have yielded only two Hounds to be culled(they probably had some Oxygen depravation @ birth as their damn was over 8 and these were the last of 9 Pups whelped), 31 others are producing game consistently for their Hunters in 5 States.

These Pedigrees (Papers) are Genetic Atlases….Road Maps if you will…when combined with detailed records of the traits individuals have expressed, the history of the Siblings in litters, and performance evaluations at the different ages and stages of a Hounds development, they should show where you started on this journey and where you should be headed.

When done for reasons other than producing Game getting Hounds (translate this to mean MONEY) bad things happen! Cattle, Horses, Hounds, Bird Dogs it does not matter….do the right things for the WRONG reasons and you will provoke the other posts in this thread.

The Old adage “Prior and Proper Preparation will Prevent PISS Poor Performance” should be a must in Breeding Good Hounds.

Just my thoughts!

CJC

PS Ron thanks for another great, thought provoking thread!

Good post and very well put Dogboy.

Couldn't have said it better myself Dogboy.

so are your dogs papered by you dogboy keeping books or are they papered from way back with a registry ?also are you just linebreeding or do you outcross from time to time?also if your linebreeding is that causing you to have small litters ,because you said out of 11 litters you had 31 doing good and two culled for a total of 33. have they gotton smaller built two ? ive been breeding hounds since 1995 eeven though ive learned alot from folly. i would love a little insight into 50 years , i have been producing some very consistent hounds crossing papered dogs with grade out of proven beardogs . im about too do a half brother half sister cross to see what this pimple of the two lines is going to explode as.i find it fascinating . also what cross do you find most effective when it comes down to dogs being related?

Kordog,

All Dad's Hounds are registered with the International Foxhound Stud Book (the Chase). The two major registries for Running Walker Hounds is the IFSB and the Hunters Horn Registry.

These two Registries will take Walker Hounds back into the 1800's! Individual records as to style, rate of maturity, mouth, nose and performance have been kept by Dad.

As to Litter sizes, we have had a high of 9 Pups(and raised all) to several litters of two(we have a problem with Erlychyossis (sp) in our Hounds due to the time spent in the Swamps of Florida…this has caused whelping issues and has caused some damn good crosses to only be made once) , this probably more than any Genetic issue is why our litter sizes have been small.

Also several of the Hounds born during this time have Died or been killed in action! 31 is the number alive and working today out of these 11 litters.

As to the size of the Hounds (maybe Vacathunter can help hear) our avg. Hound is 24" and will weigh in the 50# range...there are several that are in the 27 to 28 inch range and will mash the scales to about 60+....small would not be an adjective used to describe a Clay Hound!

If you will go back thru the archives you will find lots of information on Dads 50+ year quest to breed Hounds to run Bobcats in the Southeastern US. His line breeding program is discussed at length on other threads.

Bigfoot is giving so good resources for Genetic Breeding information…you will find some vary helpful articles by both Mr. White and his Son @ http://www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com

Hope this information is helpful to you!

CJC