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Here is a few points to think about before you decide to pull the trigger on that female lion. This is a reply post to a thread that discussed spotting a female lion laying on a deer kill from a distance without hounds. Would you shoot her. Well most deer or elk hunters with a lion tag would but a bit later you see the spotted kittens dancing into the picture to get their fill of the deer as well. Well there are other scenarios that happen much more often than this, and if you are truely interested in staying in hounds for lion hunting and training up future lion hounds you may wish to read this.

Thanks,



Most deer any elk hunter who carry a permit to harvest a lion or bear will kill the first one they run across if they haven't taken one before, that is just the way it work. Lions are so rarely seen without hounds that most will not pass up the chance and they all look big to the un-practiced eye from a ways off.

I would hate to think a houndman would intentionaly kill a female accompanied by immature young, but it does happen, sad to say.

Now then put this in your pipe and smoke on it a bit.

Do kittens always accomapny the female in her wanderings? No they are very often cached at a kill site while she goes out to make another kill. Well then how many of these females are trailed up and killed by hound hunters? A great big bunch of them are. Not many mature females go dry, most of them have or are going to have young each breeding cycle which is normally without the mortality factor every 18 months or so.

Now think about it. Well you say that female me and Bob killed last year never had no kittens sucking on her, no milk or nothing she was a dry female. Oh Really? What makes you think they nurse on the mother all the time they are still dependant on her for survival? Good greif !they are carnivores they begin eating meat very quickly and it isn't long until she is dry, and they are chewing on bones waiting for her to come back and take them to the next fast food kill site.Many times they will leave them for several days at a time.So when you harvest a female that is healthy you can pretty well bet you have either killed a mother that is still caring for young, or a mother that is about ready to give birth to some more young. The gestation perion on felines is not very long and they go from heat cycle estrus to birthing in short order. They don't walk around a long time with a big old pregnant gut hanging down. Nowe I have treed females that were just about ready to give birth and have pictures showing what they look like, Pretty easy to see it's not a gorged stomach full of meat. But you just don't see it often. Now then you may kill a sub adult female that is not pregnant not has young yet, but as soon as they go into heat the first time old Tom comes a calling pretty quick.

So what are you saying Mike?

I am saying think long and hard before you kill female lions if you are really interested in staying in the lion hunting and dog training business.You might end up with an area like I am in where just about every lion treed during season is killed be it tom or female. And you can bet Mr. coyote is thanking you for his lion kitten dinner. Because after they starve so long where she laid them up, they will get up and wander around calling for her, and it doesn't take long and they are dinner for somebody else.

I have found them little abanonded buggers wandering around and even had some hunters say just knock them in the head and get rid of them cus it will look bad for the houndman who accidently killed their mother. Hmmmm? That's brilliant thinking!

do the right thing for your sport!
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Good post Mike

excellent post Mike

Nice Post

For a second there when I read the subject I thought you were talking about my wife. Then I see that it it is more important than that,great post.

Very good post..

Good post
I would only add.
Even young toms should be left to mature in my opinion.
Just cause it is a tom shouldn't make it a shooter.
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Very well put mike something that needs to be pounded in the heads of to many people out there cutting dogs lose!

Great post Mike

Now there is the Mike Leonard kinda posts I miss...Great post Mike! I hope you are doing good bud! Take care. Mason

Great post Mike, I hope everyone in my area will read it. Good add-on too thomas, that seems to be the mentality around here as well.

Very good post Mike. I always enjoy your posts. My Mrs. wants to go visit her Sister before they move back to Oklahoma......so I may be lookin you up in the next couple of months if that's ok?
Catman

I agree with everyone, great post. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

If your not familiar of the habits of females when the are packing kittens, then you have just read everything you need to know. Food for thought next time anyone come across a female track that is not packing kittens.

This is definatly one that everyone should read, espeacially the guys that may just be getting started out or want to get some hounds so that you can put a lion on the wall.

Recently there has been different outfits roaming the hills just after a fresh snow has fallen here. By what I understand, they are all looking to kill something. The sad thing, they haven't been feeding their dogs long enough to realize how much time it takes and how much country one might have to cover to find a fresh lion track in fresh snow where they are hunting.

One guy I talked to who has never even put a cat in the tree with his dogs, had his buddy along who was planning on taking a lion home as well.

I am sure that there are alot of guys that post on this board possibly that may have got wound up on there first lion and had to take that cat home with them because it was there "first lion" wether female or tom. More than likely at the time not realizing the downside to killing a female.

I am guesing that is the case. Most likely noone will admit to killing that 130# female even after reading Mr Leonard's post.

Sorry everyone, Im just rambling I got the news that a local outfitter took out a female and her tom kitten recently. The female weighed around 130# and the tom 150#. I am so impressed.

If we could get the fish and game to go by that philosphy around here we might have a few more lions to run. I talked to the biologist for this area the other day and tried to convince him to lower the female quota and he gave it his best to wow me with scientefic terminology. He told me that the female quota doesn't affect the population. He said more cats will move in. That was right after he told me that they don't do any studies or track surveys on lions around here, they get their scientific information from other regions in the state or another state. From what I have seen toms will move into an open territory and replace the toms that were killed that year but females don't dissperse the same way. I have seen females killed over here and it may be years before another female moves in. And if there aren't any females around the toms won't stick around very long.