BigGameHoundsmen.com

So I've noticed in the line of dogs I hunt and confirmed it after talking to the guy who has had these dogs for a long time, that this group of hounds are living to about 8 years old. The oldest one dying at 9, the majority dying at 7-8, and lots of them dying at 7. None that I know of have died younger then that from natural causes. They seem to get around really well till right up before they die. Now these hounds are hunted extremely hard their entire lives and I know this has allot to do with it. I have noticed in general hounds don't live as long as other dogs. I occasionally see hounds that's are allot older, I've hunted with a 12 year old walker and a 14 year old plot that got around like young dogs. Does anyone have dogs that are consistently living to double digits? (That hunts them hard) Does anyone consider this when breeding? And to the experienced breeders who have possibly thought of this, have you had any luck extending the lives of the dogs you have been hunting over time? I want to try and consider this more in the future. It would be cool to get another year or two out of the dogs that we have enjoyed hunting. I know this is heavily genetic, because I see it in people. So any luck making your dogs older over time? What's the average age of the hounds you hunt live to? I realize this is really for guys who have been in the game while and are really observant. And just for kicks, anyone have any stories about really old hounds still hunting and doing well?

Bryce

Good topic!
My hounds have a distinct curve. Under a year there's some fatalities. But this is do to several things. Like me keeping most of a litter at a time. But one strain seems to go about ten years and they just kinda fade away. They get heavier and less active then pretty much spend some time not able to do much.
The others really seem to go much longer and aren't prone to becoming insensible in their old age. They stay mentally alert and this is never a problem. But at the end they still like to try hunting and playing. These are bigger dogs also.
I used to run a couple other lines and them making 10 years was a feat. And most started having real health problems before. They were also prone to cancers and weak bladders as they aged.
As far as breeding for longevity I think we all should. But will be the first to admit its a difficult thing to do. If your dogs don't live long how can you improve it? You would have to keep huge numbers of dogs. And rate them continually each year and either breed them at a advanced age or breed earlier but keep dogs from each litter. Then select based on longevity later on. That's 20-30 yes before you could really expect much improvement.
I kinda lucked out with my dogs going back to closely bred dogs that had very long working lives. And those dogs also had the other traits I was looking for. Honestly though I won't for sure know how their grand pups and further age for some time yet..
Then you have to look at the turn over rate of a large portion of hound hunters and how few families are involved in breeding hounds through many generations. But in theory most hounds should reach their teens given average canine longevity by size and activity level.

I could add theres a few breeds known for extreme longevity that could be used to try improving your dogs life expectancy. But then you have the added work of cleaning up unwanted traits also.

For years I'd always been frustrated that my hounds didn't live as long as I thought they should. I would get on average 8 years. Over the past 30 years, too many of my dogs died of some type of internal kidney or liver failure. Some type of growth maybe a tumor. I read an article that said that this could be caused from feeding strictly dry dog food. Well I don't know if that is true or not but about 5-6 years ago, I switched to feeding almost 100% meat. I have one dog now that will be 10 and he hasn't slowed down yet. Still don't know if the feed is related or not but overall, my dogs are healthier.

I think it is a great topic. Every time a dog wears out too young, I think about it. And every time I hear of a dog living and hunting well into double digits , I think about it. I am glad you are thinking about it, and I wish everyone would.

Pegleg, I would like to know which breeds you are thinking of that are known for longevity. I wonder if it is an accident , or if breeders bred for it?

It seems to me that if everyone agreed not to breed a dog unless all four grandparents hunted into double digits, there could be improvement quickly. It might not prove to be so simple, but I would sure like to see people try.

I also would like to know more about people like A man I know of who always has at least 15 hounds, and most if not all of them are hunting into double digits. I asked him if it was genetic. He said no. Some of his dogs are unrelated. He said it is because he does not poison them with wormer and other toxic drugs. Would like to know more on this topic also.

But I know he makes (cooks) his own dog feed also. His foundation is dried peas. And he has an arrangement with the grocery store to pick up all discarded vegetables and meat.

Interesting topic

Here are my first thoughts....

Given hounds expire on average between 8-12 years, why would you keep any hound until it turns three before you cull it for non performance or breed any line consistent of this trait?...I recently raised a hound-running dog cross and the breeder indicated they were early starters, after 16 months I give up on the dogs and was told if I had the patients to hunt the dogs until they were three, I would not be able to afford to buy the dogs back....

All I know for sure is the good ones all seem to start early and die young! Simply look at what we subject our hounds too daily compared to other working class dogs....This is one of my biggest complains living here in Oregon, we have 6 1/2 months to condition/train/hunt our hounds and for the other 5 1/2 months we are to park them? That in itself leads to an early death in any hard working animal, now, visualize doing the same to a race horse?

Mike

First I poison my dogs with wormer and flea/tick drops real regularly. I don't know if it shortens their overall life span. What I do know is they can get real rough looking real fast by picking parasites up. Here it never is so cold your really safe. As a side note anyone that's ever shot a old mangy desert jack rabbit and watched the mass exodus can appreciate this. Now I'm not real squeamish and used to shoot northern jacks out of the winter wheat fields to help feed dogs. But I get the itchies when my pups start getting to close to catching one here.
And I use ivomec not so much because its less expensive but because we have so many varieties of worms very few canine dewormers work on. Not to mention mange mites and heart worms.
I think meat protein is important to a dogs health and should make up a good percentage of their feed. But there is lots of ways to do this. Game, horse/cow, fish meal, even eggs and milk. I don't feed pork myself because there's a lot of cross over parasites and secondly it goes bad quicker then other meats unless the temperature can be kept really low. I do really like eggs though and the dogs can get a lot of use out of a single egg a day. They are also easy and simple to feed even for someone with limited time. Brood bitches do well with eggs added to their feed. Given the wide range of nutritional value eggs supply they are a easy supplement. Granted it makes some dogs less then ideal tent or home companions. I guess the old advice to stay upwind might apply.
On the other hand. Historically there's very few dogs that were raised on meat diets for all of written history. Sled dogs ate meat and fish. Herding dogs ate milk and meat. Eastern and north eastern European hunting spitzes ate meat. Middle eastern sight hounds were fed meat fruit and milk. But European dogs of all kinds ate breads first and proteins as a treat. There's roman writings on the feeding of hunting and war dogs. It basically advocates breads and whatever spare meats can be found. Excluding before hunt or battle.
In Asia only very few dogs were allowed meat in any regular amount. With leftovers and fish making up the most of that.
I've watched lots of dogs eat dry ground grains by choice from feed grinders on farms and these well fed dogs . they seem to view it as a treat like hoof trimmings. Its got to have a pretty big appeal because its not the easiest meal for a dog to get down once their mouth dries out..
Hard work seems to extend most dogs lives much like peoples. So long as it doesn't cause physical damage or breakdown. I suspect it applies equally to most animals given otherwise adequate care.
Work horses and oxen used to live much longer then their contemporaries with many accounts stating they worked well into their twenties. Justin Morgan is a well published example and still died of injuries I believe.
Throughout the years I've had pups go into pet homes. Some I lost track of. But a few stick out. One pup I gave to a family . the female was four and the male six when this pup was born. They pampered this dog a great deal and it ran loose on their ranch but otherwise wasn't encouraged or required to do anything. The first few years its hunt drive kept it active but never thin. After about four or so it was sure to be seen in the yard . now its parents where twice its age at this point and still looked to be the same age. But after this period this dog greyed and got stiff at such a rapid rate that it was for the most part incapacitated within two more years . by seven it looked to be 15 or more. The mother and father in their teens where in much better shape and still hunting once or twice a week. The litter mates I kept looked like they could have been generations younger.
Pictures of them together would have been the best comparison.

I don't deny hunting hounds work hard and are sure up there at the top. But some stock dogs put more miles on in a day then any hound. You might switch horses several times or use a ATV. To cover far fewer miles but those little dogs just keep running. And some put in truly long days . yet not once have I ever heard anyone mention conditioning them! They routinely live into their late teens early twenties. Now maybe part of this is due to being slightly smaller then some hounds. But there isn't much difference between size with most being in the 40-60lb range . but think about the dog that loafs in the yard for long periods does his patrols and rides around in the truck. Then with out a hint he is doing 16 hour days for so many days in a row . but I do agree hunting seasons are hard on hounds. But its mostly the combination of mental and physical idleness. If you can keep them even moderately active they seem to swing right back in much quicker.
I don't see many finished hounds before their third birthday or hunting season. Many know what's expected more or less how to get it done but rock solid dependable no. I might be missing something and I'm sure in different conditions a dog can be gotten on more game. But in the end any extra year of hunting a dog lives through really counts in the overall percentage of increase

David . my memory isn't exact but there's a handful of terriers that have very long lives. One or two companion breeds. One of which was based on a female with a very long life span. Mostly accidental as she was bred then later bred back to a son. At this point it became a conscious breeding program. Beagles live pretty long lives. New guinea dogs . dingos and some sight hounds from native stock. The others are incidental breeds. I'm not trying to be vague and am willing to refresh my memory if you think its useful. But I typically focus only on breeds with a purpose other then existing. And honestly while I can't began to remember all the "working" dogs in my life with out context to start. I can name and picture the few pet only bred dogs. A peke a poodle mix. Both dogs my mother brought home. The poodle was a mouser and could learn tricks easily. The peke's only trick was snapping with little effect. There was a period as a child I was interested in Boston terriers but it only lasted a year or so.

Didn't Tooper Again and Center Fire Sampson both live along time?
Do the rest of these nance hounds live into there teens?
I've been lucky to get 10 out of a few but when they did go they went fast! Cancer

Interesting subject. Over the years I would say my hounds average 13-years. With most of them still going strong into their 12th year. I have had some go past 14 but that is not the norm. My Bonaparte dog turned 11 this year and is still real hard to beat on either a tough track or a good over night track.

I have always had real good success with longevity. I hunt hard, but my dogs are also well taken care of coming from the Veterinary background. If they need something, it gets done, and they aren't left to just "suffer" on their own. But at the same time, I do believe in survival of the fittest. The family strain I have live on average to 14. Some living to 16, and almost all are hunting still in the 12+ category. My Kelly dog is 10.5 and still runs with the young dogs. Though I am trying to retire both her and Aspen this year, not because they aren't still valuable, but because I have 10 other dogs that are stepping it up and it is their turn to shine. Them old girls have been thru a lot, I feel why push them until they are completely useless and broken down, they were good to me for a lot of years. Convincing them they need to stay home is another story though... Aspen has an inoperable splenic tumor, she is turning 9, and that will take her probably within the year, but honestly that's just life. Can't really do anything to prevent cancer. Hard to prove it's genetic when so many hounds die in the field and are culled at a young age. I have noticed some breeds and lines of dogs do seem very prone to die young, and I am mindful of that when breeding.

Interesting info.

I know too much idleness in hounds and animals in general and even people is obviously bad and unhealthy, therefore creating more health problems and overall shortening lives. But I have always thought what was equally or probably even more taxing on the lifespan of a hound was the amount of "over exertion" that hound hunting, particularly big game hunting in the toughest conditions requires. For instance, I played football in high school and college. I am still very young, but my body hurts more then my friends who didn't play football who are my age. Therefore, its likely I will be more susceptible to health problems when I'm older because of these conditions then my peers and may not live quite as long. (I doubt it but just saying ha) Same with hounds right? If I hunt them over and over in the California big woods their whole lives then they should be more 'beat up' per say and not last as long as they would if they were only coon hunted in the flat lands their whole life. Of course with that said I would rather have 7 awesome years with a hound I like then 9 mediocre years and will always choose the hard hunting. And we (smart hound hunters and breeders in general, I am not claiming to be among them) breed for hardiness, but maybe not for longevity as much, which by my observations are two different qualities. And as you guys have said, as with all other breeding theories, its way easier to talk about then to accomplish. I want to incorporate it in the future.

Cassandra I'm not surprised you've incorporated this some, and I hope you get longer out of Aspen then the diagnosis reveals.

To Chris Todd, I've never met you, hello my name is Bryce. I think that's cool stuff. If your hounds are still going strong into their 12th year, then you are getting 4 more years out of a hound then I am on average, which I would love to get to that point. What breed and strain of hounds are you hunting? If you don't mind me asking of course.

I still up for hearing a story about someone's 16 year old hound still consistently treeing bear by himself or something crazy like that!

Bryce

With Chris I think most of those dogs go back to old family lines which probably helps explain the longevity. If you breed your own hounds with little reason or desire to import continuously its seems likely those with the longest careers will just figure into the breeding more often. I did a little double checking and our hounds really out live the average foxhound of any type by several working years. Must be something to it.

Bryce, I am hunting hounds that mainly have their origin in the Southwest. My hounds have alot of the Goswick and Jeff Allen breeding in them. We hunt in pretty tough conditions here alot of rock a hound had better have real good feet. Not much water. And I think what surprises alot of people on my hounds is their size. I have alot of hounds that run over 70-pounds. My old Scout dog kinda my foundation stud for most of the hounds I have now was still going at 13. The only reason I stopped hunting him was that he had gone almost totally deaf. And in hunting shape he was 78-pounds. He was probably the toughest hound I ever hunted with. Most guys today want the smaller hounds. And that is their choice. But I have owned and hunted with several of the smaller strains of hounds and have yet to find any tougher than what I am already hunting with.