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Just thought I would throw this question out for the group.

Have any of you owned or hunted with an extra cold nosed plott hound over the years that was extra good on tuff or dry ground lion tracks?

If so do you recall the bloodline, and details?

I understand that some hunters may not be in an area where you get to observe a lot of bare ground or dry ground lion trailing so it might also be worth stating if you have seen some that could take those old froze down hard snow and ice tracks and even work them up across those barren south slopes.

Just thought it would be interesting conversation topic. I know Plotts are normally known well for their grit, tree power, and general over all toughness, and bear and hog rank at the top of their charts. but I also no many of them are used for cougar and bobcat, so lets see what is out there.


OBTW I am not looking for anybody to argue or pick the breed apart here just honest observations. I have owned a lot of plott hounds from various bloodlines over the years and I will share some of my stories along the way.

Thanks

mike back about 1975 one of the guys I hunted with bought a plot from a fellla by the name of roy sing out of arkansa / he ran bear fox and some cats , he hran pretty close to all the dogs we had back then. but that was the only one I saw , I tried all the big names at the time he was the only one that came close jim

I know its a long shot but being as your not to far from there I thought I'd mention it. Back in the early eighties there was a rancher along the Oklahoma new mex line that traveled around and hunted. I'm not sure all of what he hunted but am inclined to think about everything. But he brought his dogs into the country around the head of the cimarron river and spent a few weeks in there. My grandfather hunted with him and we had a get together up there. They did pretty good in those cedar breaks and bluffs. I think his name was George.

Had a friend come out to hunt Nevada with me and he brought along a big brindle plott. It trailed cold. I believe he said it was Brandenburger sure I spelled that wrong. It came from eastern Utah.

Berlin King,Roy Sing and Dale Brandenburger.Don't know if these lines are still in existence .

Great replies! Thanks

Yes I knew Dale Brandenburger and got some dogs from him out of Pioneer Slim, Tom and Pioneer Thundering Echo. The Echo pups turned out the best on lion, and Roy sing also had some good dogs although I never meet him. Berlin King had Tree Talking Casey and Cold Water Toby that were both hall of fame dogs. At one time I knew 3-4 western big game hunters that had dogs out of Pioneer Echo that were all top lion dogs. I believe they were Cecil Ralston of New Mexico, Wendell Hatch of Utah, Ray Stein and Van Johnson of Colorado. The Echo dogs seemed to really have the nose on them.

Mike Leonard wrote:Great replies! Thanks

Yes I knew Dale Brandenburger and got some dogs from him out of Pioneer Slim, Tom and Pioneer Thundering Echo. The Echo pups turned out the best on lion, and Roy sing also had some good dogs although I never meet him. Berlin King had Tree Talking Casey and Cold Water Toby that were both hall of fame dogs. At one time I knew 3-4 western big game hunters that had dogs out of Pioneer Echo that were all top lion dogs. I believe they were Cecil Ralston of New Mexico, Wendell Hatch of Utah, Ray Stein and Van Johnson of Colorado. The Echo dogs seemed to really have the nose on them.

Mike

This post isn't intended to start a fight but to rater explain my experiences with most plott hounds in the past. At one time Oregon- Washington and Idaho had some of the most plott hunters and breeders any place in the US.I owned my share of Plott hounds. Dale Brandenburger produced a quality style hound and most made top rig dogs for coon and lion the kind that would always be worth feeding, most failed in the bear dog woods in Oregon. We have some of the most extreme conditions on the coast with brush you can hardly crawl through. This took it's toll on most breeds and strains. I owned hounds from Steve Mohr and found they didn't cut it. A guy from Vader Washington (name withheld) hunted with Steve and said he would only breed to a male owned by another hard hunter from Steve's line. I asked Canadian Outfitter one time while on a hunt together why he went to the US for hounds instead of buying local hounds in B.C.? He said he needed hounds he could make his living with....Name withheld as well, you remember the man from Washington that wrote for Full cry decades ago? Same guide...

I bought a pup from Government hunter Frank Stabb in Lewiston Idaho after he retired. Frank bred his top female to Slap Water Jack of Carl Carney...I culled it...I hunted with two direct sons of Willard Woodby's gunner hound, they died from parvo and never got to see how they would have worked out. The line of Cold water toby did well from Berlin King. Back in the early days, many of the Omak guys would drive to Sweet Home in the 70-80's and we would hunt coons, most all winter long we kept a long gun for bears caught, treed or bayed all during the night while trying to rig coons, them orchards attracted both coon and bear and we had little concern...It was just hunting back then! Mike Corey and I hunted coons in or around 1980? I think he lived in the Wenatchee or Ellensburg country if memory serves me? He and Clatyon drove down together and we ended up together hunting....Mike is a p.b.r. stock contractor and associated with Shorty these days....Shorty's cousin lives to the south of me and is a top houndsmen...

I hunted with Jerry Jackson from Sweet Home. Jerry hunted blueticks and they were just like all the rest, you could catch ample amounts of coons but pretty worthless on big game. Jerry's Brother Clayton lived in Omak and the connection from one State to the next. Clayton owned some fine bear dogs. They were bred by Berlin King-Roy Sing and best to best with several being grade like most of the better plott hounds of this era.

I hunted with a line of hounds from Ron Hill. They were UKC bred and nice dogs. The plotts I started with were grade hounds, half Hill and half Ledford bred grade plott. They were pretty crude. They had sticking qualities I now find less than desirable today and if you turned them loose on Saturday morning, don't plan on going home on Sunday night! I had them stick on a walking bear 51 hours from Saturday morning to where I found then treed Monday afternoon. To this day I have never seen another hound of any breed or color that could out rig or trail a bear than a plott hound named Shorty, he could up draft a thermal in a canyon a half mile out and drift and find the track, he rigged coon on top or under the box as fast as you could drive...

Dirty tough style that would die on the box from swimming a river in the dead of winter, freezing cold and jump on the rig deck and go to hunting...Back in the day I killed three to five hundred coon per season hide hunting, back then we had way more coon than today and we left zero for seed! I quit jumping lions out because they were too rough on them, they would suck them to the ground and the life out of them if you allowed it...They would stress the lion bad enough it possibly would die if you didn't keep control of things. Too me, the plott hound just outgrew it's usefulness...You can't bay or tree what you can't first stop.

I tried keeping this line going with little luck. I bought three plott pups, Swampland bred by Leroy Haug. They all had different qualities and made keepers. I admired Leroy before his health failed he drove to Oregon and hunted his dogs on the Coast. He was committed to making bear dogs and found he needed to cull some of his hounds before all was said and done, that brush took it's toll on his pack too.

One thing that differs between those days and today, we had ample game with liberal seasons with unlimited access unlike today and guys actually never rode for the brand...Them dogs didn't catch or work, they were considered broken tools and replaced! I could post up some early day pictures if anyone is interested...Just so no one becomes offended by my position on hounds...I would cull 90% of all breeds and strains, especially treeing walkers just like within the horse world!

Interesting you started this thread Mike....I and Mark was just talking about plotts and how much different or better those hounds would have possibly been had we only had the Garmin's back then? We'll never know and I guarantee you, I'll never know...Only thing I know is, I'm not the handler I once was and will never own another plott hound ever!



See if you can spot the plott man who always ended his stories with....

"Good hunting to all honest sportsmen!"

Take care!
Mike

Mike,

Excellent reply as always and tons of historical information. Thank you!

Don't know why but your post reminded me of a night long ago that found me in a bad blackwater swamp. It was tight choked with salt cedar and Russian olive bushes and I was part wading part swimming most of the time. I had a real nice male dog I called Bearpath Hawk a direct son of old Gunner. At that time I was moving around a lot with my work and this hound, and my black Labrador Mariah, my saddle and a beat up F-150 was about it. That hound lived right in the house with me and he would fetch ducks for me just as good as the lab and took commands almost as well.

Back to this swamp: It was alive with coon, and just like you back in them days I was hunting for hides and I was serious about it. This Hawk dog was an ace, and no water brush was too much for him, and he would tree one after another swimming around them bushes barking and me black with mud wading and dog paddling in there to pop them out with my Ruger Bearcat, which would require a complete strip down the next day to keep it from turning to rust. That dog was a sticker and caught quite a few lion for me but was crazy for bear.

I refused some pretty good money for him back in those days from a guy that wanted him, and shortly there after he was stolen and never found. I went and bought a full sister to him and although she was decent she was never the dog he was. If you remember the Cascade Boulder dog that Oliver Smith use to have well Hawk was a dead ringer to him. In fact Bobbie Archuleta who owned Cascade Easy Money saw Hawk one das and just kept saying over and over. That's Boulder! That's Boulder!

I know a couple guys who got pups from Brandenburger that made good bobcat dogs.

1bludawg wrote:I know a couple guys who got pups from Brandenburger that made good bobcat dogs.

Robin

I suspect so...The dogs Dale Bred sure enough had enough sense to make fair bobcat hounds unlike my plotts. I remember hunting lions up Oakridge country prior to the ban and the game warden stopped me and asked for my bobcat card...I told him I was strictly lion hunting and he called me a liar...I told the man jump in and I will show you the only bobcats I could tree with my dogs would be if one jumped in the cab with me....I never treed not one bobcat during a time I saw plenty jump the roads!!!!They were lion simple types and why I never give credit to our snow type or even out west bare ground lion dogs, huge difference in the S.W. style if you ever treed lots of lions, folks would understand what I'm eluding too...Both real deal lion and coon dogs are rare! Why run a pelt worth not much more than coon hides, in the same time I spent bobcat hunting for one cat? I could tree ten coons. Simple economics back then!

Good times and memories!

For a span of over 30 years on lion studies in southern Idaho the dog of choice was Bluff Creek bred Plotts.
This would include both winter and summer captures.

Plotts
Bluff Creek were some nice hounds. Bob Headings from Salem Oregon hunted those line along with the hounds of Mohr.

Mike

I posted some pictures to illustrate my plotts and to give you an idea what they were like...They just treed game, day or night...I even had access to a boat when I hunted the coast tributaries so I could row to my dogs...

Coon Hide Room



Ruff and coons


Boat to access treed plotts.


Devil-- Hill x Ledford


Shorty and lion


Shorty and a tom lion



Sponge Bob. Eugene Walker bred plott

Shorty and fall bear


Devil and Shorty with one night catch


Shorty and bayed bear

Devil and bayed bear

Devil and Shorty on bayed lion

I currently have a grade Plott that has a pretty good nose, but doesn't have the stamina like my walkers on tough bear races. Before Kenny Jones died I bought a Plott from him she had a good nose, was tough but had bad feet. She was killed by wolves at age 2.

Friend of mine I used to hunt with bought 2 Bear Path Plotts from Woodby's grandson. The one was dumber than a box of rocks and was culled the other one made a real nice cold nosed cat dog.

Mike m is the washington guy that wrote in full cry Del Hannah ?

I hunt plotts . grade and registered. My grade plotts are mostly kamphouse bred. They are of the caliber of the dogs mike m posted pics and stories on. They are hard tough and rough . these dogs tree lion and bobcat dry ground . not all of them but most . bear dogs oh man 32 hour is the longest on baying walking bear. Stamina that blown the mind. Noses that are amazing. I run these dogs with any one any breed anywhere and They are as good or better than anything out there. I have out crossed these kamphouse dogs on old star mtn blood ,bearpath, cascade, and swampland and blackwater . they made nic e dogs nothing changed a whole lot except crossing the blackwater added super tree style but lost some nose. Recently i have purchased some registered pups because my dogs are getting to inbred . i purchased one from doug hicks bill hicks brother and i really like him so far he is line bred on bills old stock . i also purchased a pup that is in transit now from roy stiles out of his old stock which is von plott stuff. I have 2 more pups coming this spring . one from rodney burris that will be mostly cascade . and one more pup coming from steve herd bluff creek . this will get me out of inbred stuff. I did a lot of research on these guys and found that they have what i want and its like what i have . i hope this pans out the way i want it to.