Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

A place to Talk about Fox Hunting and Running Dogs.
mondomuttruner
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby mondomuttruner » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:30 pm

Not cutting down any old timers but isn't it possible that the game animals have evolved? Just an example, I grew up making deer drives, back in the day the first hoot by the drivers and the deer were out to the posters. Today you have to almost step on a deer to get it to move and many let you walk right past them. I see a big difference in how bear run in front of the dogs in the last 20 years. Bear learned to walk roads more from bait to bait to throw off the hounds.

So, were the hounds that much better back in the day or were the animals easier to catch? Just food for thought...
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby macedonia mule man » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:44 pm

The fellows I hunted with in the early 50s didn't catch many fox. They ran a good many to ground but didn't run down and kill many. They actually didn't want to. A typical hunt went like this. Meet up about two hours before dark, cook a stew and have supper, which was good. Passed a gallon of cherry bounce around for about an hour. Then turn 1-2 strike dogs out in different directions. When one struck the other got there pretty quick and depending on the track they started feeding dogs into thr race. Usually two dogs were added until all the old dogs were in the race. They would let that feed run till they got the fox stinking( that was their terminology). Then they started feeding young dogs. when they had everything in the race it was usually steady running until one of the old fellows would say , ok fellows that fox is dead let's catch up. That ment to him the race had satisfied him as much as a kill would. We had one man in the community that ended the race differently. He hunted all july which were tall red to orange open spotted with flag tails and a little hair on back side of front and hind legs. He started sometime from midnight till daylight and killed as many as he could with a double barrel. Had a large barn covered with fox hides. As far as I know he never was invited to hunt with us but I think he was doing what he liked best
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby JTG » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:55 pm

Some hounds are much better today than the hounds of years ago. With good breeding practices, a good breeders hounds, will be better today and future generations better.
It is common to refer to some breeder of hounds from years ago, in my way of thinking, it's what the hounds can do today and not were they came from or have done in the past.
Game is much easier to catch today, than in the past when there was a price on their head, at least around here.



mondomuttruner wrote:Not cutting down any old timers but isn't it possible that the game animals have evolved? Just an example, I grew up making deer drives, back in the day the first hoot by the drivers and the deer were out to the posters. Today you have to almost step on a deer to get it to move and many let you walk right past them. I see a big difference in how bear run in front of the dogs in the last 20 years. Bear learned to walk roads more from bait to bait to throw off the hounds.

So, were the hounds that much better back in the day or were the animals easier to catch? Just food for thought...
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:15 am

Muleman, 99% of the fox here that don't just get away go to ground too. Only about 1% get caught. Back in the 70s there was probably 30 fox hunters within 25 miles of my house. Some rich, some poor, but many hounds of the top bloodlines of the day were imported here from all over the country. Some of those guys were on first name basis with all the top breeders of the day. But the % of fox caught on top remained the same.
Thinking back reminded me of a place we ran red fox sometimes, very slight rolling hill bahia grass pastures as far as the eye could see with a 10 to 20 acre wood lot or brier patch, about 1 per section. Man them were some races, you string some dogs and make some quit there. The only thing I didn't like about it is the rancher that owned it didn't want us on his place but didn't mind the dogs running on it, so that meant the race was out of hearing sometimes, might be a hour or so before they come back in hearing.
I like to hear every bark.
macedonia mule man
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby macedonia mule man » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:04 am

Scrub, the entire state I grew up in was like you described. Maby from the Gulf up about 100 was less agricultural. We could set on front porch and listen to several fox races at the same time. I've had a fox race put me to sleep a lot of nights. Those races were individuals exercising their pack getting ready for the weekend hunt. I really miss how people welcomed you to hunt on their place. I don't ever recall any trouble with any land owners over dogs running on their place. We did have a few grouches in the are but not over dogs. The didnt want you climb the fence or leave the gap open. I was probably a late teen before I saw a metal gate. I really can't recall those fellows importing any dogs they might have and just didn't talk about it or I wasn't paying attention. They did swap dogs with family member and friends from neighboring towns. All those dogs were naturally broke because the only game in our area was fox, bob white, rabbit,squirrel, skunk, and a few coon. I don't know if dogs were any better back then or not, I know it was a lot less complicated to hunt back then.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby undertheradar » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:34 pm

man yall got some good reading material here. I too think the Walker dog lacks nose and the instinct to want to catch. I also think field trials have caused this and at the same time made the hound tougher. If we could incorporate this with a registered line of dogs that's been bred for trailing and such, I think you could have some pretty good dogs. But with anything you have to cull. I NEVER wanted registered walkers because all the real fox dogs were grade, until I owned and bred AHRA style beagles. Those things were more predictable than anything I ever messed with. The walker breed as a whole could do a 360 if the outside hunters would stick together and breed together. jmo
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:47 pm

Undertheradar, money will keep outside hunters from just breeding the outside dogs, you know you normally can't put 5 broke dog hunters together and see things the same way, or what to breed, or heck which dog did the best for that matter. How in the world are they gonna stick together in what we breed. Some outside hunters I know breed to dogs that are too warm nosed for my taste, but it's what they are successful with in their area. Plus you know there ain't enough $$ in just breeding outside dogs, and some guys can't help but think about what they can get for selling a puppy. Do agree field trials have made dogs tougher though, but I don't need one tough enough to run a path for 12-16hours
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
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Dan Edwards
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby Dan Edwards » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

undertheradar,

I just bred an "outside July" bitch to a "pen bred Walker" dog. Both sides think I'm a (beep) idiot. I may well be but both dogs do their job. The pen bred dog is a killer. Way more so than the outside bred bitch. Time will tell.



perk,

You say you don't need one to go run a path for 12-16 hours but if ya hunt Friday, Saturday, and Sunday you might want one that will leave the truck come Sunday morning.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:49 pm

Dan, I often hunt 3 days or more back to back, try to hunt 3-4 days every week. Generally hunt every day Saturday thru the following Sunday each summer week of the 4th of July , they get up and go every time I ask. They may look poor and pitiful in the pen or when I cast them but the scent of Fox fills the nostrils and. They come to life. That's just having a hound in condition. Toughness isn't near the top of my priorities, that has always seemed to take care of itself if you got dogs running to catch.
Last edited by perk on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
mark
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby mark » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:13 pm

Im not a fox hunter but i agree with a lot of things you guys have to say and the a lot of the things you like in dogs. I like heart and the drive to catch in a dog, have seen those 2 things (if there is even a diference in the 2) overcome many physical and other desired traits we like in dogs and still hold their own with more talented dogs. If that makes any sense?????????
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:21 pm

Mark, I've always related the desire to catch with drive, and heart with the desire to go, and will go, overcoming adversity such as injury, pulled pads, raw feet etc. even if it can't keep up because of it, it keeps following or flanking the pack trying to get back in it. Very close to what I'd call bottom in a hound, it will kill itself trying to stay in the race before it quits and comes to the truck. That is one of the traits I admire in running dogs that I have never seen in a tree bred hound. When they'd get tired from multiple days of hunting they just wouldn't leave the truck. Now keep in mind all of the tree dogs I've had experience with were coon dog lines, y'alls biggame lines may be a lot different. Which I'm sure they are.
Undertheradar, I'd bet those good grade fox dogs all went back to registered dogs. They had Raider,Pickett, Meggs, Yazoo, Hill, Hellems, Flowers ect. In them. All of those bloodlines had fox dogs in them and were the result of the old 3 day field trials before anybody ever heard of a fox pen. Back then a hound had to score across the board to have any hope of placing. They had to have a nose and be able to trail. Believe it or not, back in the 60s and 70s there were a lot of registered fox hounds could get down and trail a bad track and put it to running.
The pen trials is whole different game that basically requires a different type dog.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby undertheradar » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:30 pm

scrubrunner wrote:Undertheradar, I'd bet those good grade fox dogs all went back to registered dogs. They had Raider,Pickett, Meggs, Yazoo, Hill, Hellems, Flowers ect. In them. All of those bloodlines had fox dogs in them and were the result of the old 3 day field trials before anybody ever heard of a fox pen. Back then a hound had to score across the board to have any hope of placing. They had to have a nose and be able to trail. Believe it or not, back in the 60s and 70s there were a lot of registered fox hounds could get down and trail a bad track and put it to running.
The pen trials is whole different game that basically requires a different type dog.


Yessir. A lot of them around here went back to Hornet /Midnite. Garners Copper and Flowers. The problem was the bigger dog men that attended real foxhound field trials and foxhunted quit or died off, and the ones that were left were just hunters. They didnt care about the papers or the ones left didnt know where they came from and just kept breeding what got the job done.

I got some grade dogs, my best dogs in fact, are grade dogs. I strive to have some that will do like I want and have the paper work to back it up. I like to start a litter of puppies in the pen and make arrangements for folks to come get some of them. Here, even though I did it yesterday, you can give a grade dog away. Everybody wants papers so I am trying to do the same thing. Even though to me that paperwork don't mean crap.

I have seen a lot of registered dogs that have the moves and just lack the nose. I also think if someone let those hot nose dogs run loose from pups, their nose would develop more than it does in the fox pens.

Perk,
Sticking together I'm saying you come get a pup, then a year later I come get a pup. No money. Just placing [strategically] pups around for a lot of different reasons. I may have the best line of pups that just don't like the thick here on the NC line but up your way might perform better. You may have some that don't have the best nose up there in the foothills but here in the swamp work great. There isn't a whole lot of that going on anymore. Heck I offered some nice pups to some guys on the Northern Neck, I think I even offered them to you. Everybody "had too many" to take anymore.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:51 pm

You did offer them, and I did have too many. I Give all my extra pups away and try to place them with people who will hunt them so I know how they turn out, never made a dime in a puppy in my life, whether you get it at 6 wks old with no shots or 6 months and it's had all 3 shots, rabies and wormed regularly. I got 3-4 guys who tend to get most my extra pups unless someone asks 1st but your welcome to get your hands on any extra pup I have any time I breed, no cost!
I raise so many litters it's hard to get pups from others sometimes based on pen space but ill try one those southeast va grade pups, have had a couple I liked and seen a few up here I liked too. But not looking for a lot of those names some Carolina boys are high on in the papers, just the ones bred to run foxes outside
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby Dan Edwards » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:59 pm

perk wrote:Dan, I often hunt 3 days or more back to back, try to hunt 3-4 days every week. Generally hunt every day Saturday thru the following Sunday each summer week of the 4th of July , they get up and go every time I ask. They may look poor and pitiful in the pen or when I cast them but the scent of Fox fills the nostrils and. They come to life. That's just having a hound in condition. Toughness isn't near the top of my priorities, that has always seemed to take care of itself if you got dogs running to catch.


perk,

I wasn't referring to your dogs at all not going hunting. I was more so commenting on the fact that a lot of these so called outside dogs that we all have seen have lost a little of their toughness. That was my only point. That being said I have at times hated on pen bred dogs like a lot of folks have. I have also loved quite a few of them. No different than the outside bred dogs Ive seen.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:51 pm

Dan, didn't take it as a personal statement about my hounds, was just saying I didn't see a lack of that in most dogs I grew up around, and a scent of the right game can make there desire to go look and run overcome their stuff sore worn down body. Just like if they care dog tired and run down in a chase, if I hark them up closer on a Fox , they seem to have renewed vigor, excitement, and determination
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO

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