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Ok guys I want to pick your brains. I run bobcat in the south (Ms.) I have this happen too often and other hunters in the south experience the same. Dogs start a good track and move it well. At some point the dogs have a 'down' sometimes for a minute or so and other times much longer. Eventually a dog will pick it up again but can hardly move it or dogs never find it again. I know that I don't have the best dogs in the world but some of these guys have pretty nice hounds. The only things we have in common are we all use running dogs, we are all hunting Ok, Ar, La, Ms, and Al.
So, what happens? Is it the dogs? Scenting condition? What?
Thanks in advance
John Sumrall


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Every incedent could be slightly different. But the general issue I see is cats don't leave alot of scent period and I believe there's two types air scent and ground scent. I don't mean to ruffle feathers here just my opinion. But hounds are either bred to trail ground scent or run body scent there are crossover type dogs that can do both but lean one way or the other. I think conditions also play a role in which scent has what characteristics.
But my experience is these cats change what they are doing be it a mad dive double back or just squatting down. This breaks the scent the dogs were running and also gives what scent there is time to dissipate. A calm intelligent dog that knows to switch gears and tracking style will really make a difference here but if you have dogs that Sony want to change up or take to long to do it or in some cases start looking for trees it really stacks the odds. Anyway that's the short version of what I believe

LOL!
If you could smell the track you would not need a dog.!

Seriously that happens a lot.when Clyde Miller and Dale Lee were at the BBCHA fall round up years ago, they had a lively discussion going concerning that very thing.
no amount of reason why it happens. Dale( and Clell for that matter) both felt that in some situations a cat can hold their scent... I only had some limited bobcat hunting in the 80's but there were many times hunting coon it sure seemed that that did happen.

quite often I have turned out on a coon that crossed in front of me and the hounds could not run it-- sometimes they could cold trail it but not smoke it like one would think.
in the 60's while hunting with Don Williams ( his hounds were a mixed lot of hounds that his dad and he had bred up over 40 years.. Walker,Redtick B&T, Bluetick and some July in the mix--- If they did not work they did not stay!) many times we started the hounds on coon crossing the road and had good tracks but there were certainly numerous timed that the hounds just could not trail them...

It is my belief that some atmospheric conditions will cause real problems with scent.

I ask a question--- have you been out hunting and noticed streaks of warm air and cold air hitting in seeming layers???
it sure looked like that was part of the puzzle.

My first hound was a smallish Bluetick female and she could smoke a deer but one time while working a field, we seen a doe get up and run in front if her-- she could not trail it and we found a new fawn where she got up---

can animals hold their scent???
WHO KNOWS!

Welllll here goes a theory that I have held for a long time. Some of you will think that it is laughable and it may be. I believe that the scent is still there but it has changed and the dogs don't recognize it as the scent that they are searching for. I call it the emotional scent response. I know for a fact that an angry or emotional person smells differently than he smells when calm. I also know when working with and training mules that their normal body odor and the smell of their breath will change immediately when asked to do something that frightens or upsets them. Every time that I have witnessed dogs "loosing" the scent of a game animal it was at the point of extream danger to the animal [almost hit by a truck, almost caught by dogs, etc]. Once two friends and I were quitely standing at the edge of a corn field listening to a wonderful coon race. The coon ran out of the corn and almost into us then turned back into the corn. The dogs could not move the track past that point. A super cold nosed Bluetick tread a coon. I hitched the dog and climbed the tree and whipped him off a limb. The dog watched the coon run off but when released he could not trail him of the shade of the tree. IMO No animal can stop sheding scent molocules but those molocules can change.

Well John welcome to bobcat hunting, assure you that has been going on the past fifty years on some cats here in southwestern oregon. Believe any strait shooting bobcat hunter will tell you that, don/t know for sure why. Pegleg gave some good examples. Now if it is happening with most every cat your dogs run might try a different style of track dog, dogs that charge hard can over run a cat track, a dog that moves the track fast enough to break the cats pace with few breaks will catch more cats in my experience. Hopefully, some hunter with more knowledge than I, will give you a sure fire solution. Al

I've had a few hounds that just seemed better equipped to deal with those situations. And a couple that it didn't seem to happen to. Which is why I think it has to do with a scent change. I had experienced the whole just saw a car couldn't trail it scenario enough to recognize it. And then I had a hound it just didn't seem to happen to after a certain age. And that when I started paying attention. And all I can say is she shifted gears real smoothly. She would hit the end of it a then just calmly work it out and then off she d go . I just think it's hard to find a dog that can do it whether it's learned or natural it's not common in my experience. But it goes back to the practice of loading dogs up and then roaring them aways from the sighting back to it and now thirty or forty minutes later they can take it. Think while the type of scent might have changed it's still car scent in the end and the dogs mindset has a great deal to do with it. On the other hand I've seen a dog cold trail scent and get lost everytime it got warmed up for awhile. I think that dog was working with to much nose and not enough brain. Or maybe I'm the one that's confused it happens often enough. This might explain the often stated theory cats are forever jumping out on the hounds. Now I'm not saying that doesn't happen because it does. I just don't think it's as common as some people think.I have noticed it has a stronger following with coonhound hunters. And I've seen enough of those type dogs get confused and fall treed. To know it happens. I just think once the hotter air scent starts to settle they pick it up and start trailing again. The only thing I've seen like it is very Fox but rarely. Most dogs run lions by ground scent here. Gears might be started by ground scent but the majority of the race is air scent. I can't say why bobcat scent seems different but guess it has to do with strength and behavior of the scent.

Hey John, reread your post,realized first question I should have asked. Do you have a good locating tree dog???? If you are running lots of cat & not treeing them, try getting to the spots where the track ends & checking the trees, bios will be a big help sometimes. Don/t know how much experience or what age your best dogs are, some good experienced cat hunters have told me, never seen a two year old cat dog. Seen a two year old that can tree some cats, but never seen two year old cat dog. Have been told some cat hunters count those situations you speak of as a caught cat. If we counted all those as catches, would for sure increase our catch ratio. I have hunted with some of the best cat hunters in these parts. If I was to tell them those things never happened to my dogs, sure they would tell others Albert has lost his mind. One thing to ask yourself, am I always running bobcat. Recall in my very early days of cat hunting, a rainey day I was listening to a young hound, that in my mind was running a bobcat. I was right in close to this action, that dog would make a lose, pick the track up and continue, sure sounded good. The race came right in underneath me, dog shut down the bark, I am waiting for that steady tree chop as this dog was about two had treed lots of coon & a few cats. The tree barks never came, dog did not bark at all. I charged down the steep, brushy terrain, found a buck deer & that dog in a stand off. Never forgot that lesson! Good hunting Al

Albert; Coyotes will do the same as your buck deer in our area and for reasons that I do not understand the dogs do not bay bark.

When you say the dogs are moving the track good,do you mean that the dogs have it jumped and running, or are they still trailing it up to the jump?

Al, I drove by a hunter a few years ago and stopped to visit with him. During the coarse of our conversation I ask him what his dogs were running. His response was "it don't really matter as long as I don't see it."

Pegleg, you've really loaded my wagon. I tend to be the one in my circle of friends that thinks outside the box. Your theory is well worth giving some serious consideration. This could explain what is happening in a lot of situations. The first that comes to mind is when a dog that typically is not very cold nosed starts a track that others can't hardly smell.


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barksalot wrote:Albert; Coyotes will do the same as your buck deer in our area and for reasons that I do not understand the dogs do not bay bark.

That's cuz in general running hounds are not good bay dogs. Most learn to kill but if they are whipped off for whatever reason a lot of them will just stand there instead of baying. Not all running hounds but a lot of them are like that.

Mark, the game is jumped. Then they make a lose and trail out of the lose like the track is very old. My first thought would be they are on the wrong end of the track but you don't run the wrong end with the head up for sometimes an hour or more. This is not a problem I or any of my hunting friends experience a lot but it does happen from time to time. I was wondering if this was unique to the south or to running dogs or if it happens to y'all in the NW with the type hounds you run and what you think is the cause.


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John, when I can get a good one hour race that ends like you are describing with a slow cold trail leaving out of the loose area, the game down here has usually led the chase to a wet spot or a area with young pine about 10-15 feet tall with little underbrush and A mat of pine needles about a foot deep. It's hard for muy dogs to get back under something when this happens . The pine thicket is the worst place as far as I'm concerned. As far as a body being able to hold it sent is a old folk tale. Any animal that has blood pumping through his body is giving off sent from his body and from his breath. The second that animal dies, he is still giving off a scent . I know there are hunters that like to make a lot of mystery out of dogs running things, I've noticed it doesn't take much for a dog to lose it concentration on what it's doing and just wonders off for another adventure. Who knows for sure.

JohnAdam, you might try keeping actual time of your race and loses. Sometimes a 15 minute lose might seem like less time. Anything around and after 15 minutes seems tough and sometimes the dogs go back to cold trailing usually in the summer dry months.

driftwood blue wrote:LOL!
If you could smell the track you would not need a dog.!

Seriously that happens a lot.when Clyde Miller and Dale Lee were at the BBCHA fall round up years ago, they had a lively discussion going concerning that very thing.
no amount of reason why it happens. Dale( and Clell for that matter) both felt that in some situations a cat can hold their scent... I only had some limited bobcat hunting in the 80's but there were many times hunting coon it sure seemed that that did happen.

It is my belief that some atmospheric conditions will cause real problems with scent.

I ask a question--- have you been out hunting and noticed streaks of warm air and cold air hitting in seeming layers???
it sure looked like that was part of the puzzle.

can animals hold their scent???
WHO KNOWS!

Even if an animal could withhold scent? How could any animal withhold from breathing, drooling slobber while running, hair follicles dropping dna....How about when a cat pisses and walks in it's own piss and has it between it toes in the tufts of hair?

In S.W. Oregon, I have managed crops for the last 33 years on five different ranches, once a bear walks in and dines on fruit and grubs around and leaves, it takes with it quite a bit of attractant on the shoulders and legs and between it's toes, once the first bear comes and goes, the bears come out of the woodwork following a path to the food source left on the ground and the under laying brush the bear rubs on.

Just when I think I have something figured out? I prove myself wrong!
I have seen some unexplained stuff in my time and think atmospheric conditions play a roll as well.
Now I just sit in the passenger seat with no hounds, no pressure and blame everything good or bad on my buddies hounds! You might just try that and see how it works! When the hounds catch, there good hounds, when they miss....Well you know!