Stubborn pup

Talk about Big Game Hunting with Dogs
Uncle Dave
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Stubborn pup

Postby Uncle Dave » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:54 am

Looking for some advice on trash breaking a super stubborn pup. I have a ~10 mo female that has been trying to run elk. I can hit her with an 18 on the Garmin and it doesn't phase her at all. At most, I see a slight head twitch and she'll keep on running with no end in sight. I have a second female from the same litter that will flip inside out with the Garmin set on anything higher than a 5 or 6. And yes, I've swapped their collars a few times to make sure they are both functioning properly. I will also mention that these instances have occurred with fully charged batteries, within Garmin communication distances and with the longer prongs installed on the collar.

Any help would be great. Thanks in advance.
Mike Leonard
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:06 pm

Some dogs just like people, even related ones have a much higher tolerance to pain or stimulation if you will. And some dogs almost seem to get a buzz from the buzz and it winds them up. sort of like some folks get a high from a bit of pain and want to amp it up a bit to get a little more. I have been told my some who really get into tattoos that a bit of the pain association becomes a bit of an addiction. Not sure if this is applicable but it seems to ring true with some dogs.

This pup may turn out to be the best one for really sticking on a trail with the stubborn hound single minded attitude, but getting them there can be a pain. I think I would try to set the pup up on elk a few times where you can back up the collar shock with a little manual stimulation of your own so it gets the idea you are not too happy about elk running. E- Collars are suppose to make the dog think the elk or the elk smell is what is causing their dis-comfort, but some don't seem to put 2 and 2 together and just like some people they may need a little( As Hank Williams Jr. use to sing) ATTITUDE ADJUSTMENT!

Good luck!
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colobbcat
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby colobbcat » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:48 pm

Great analogy Mike in regards to the pain addiction we both know a hound with that issue!

Another way to deal with these stubborn hard running pups is set them up with positive reinforcement. Whether it be trainers or a Hot track. One technique I have found useful is send that pup down one with a good broke dog and once they both are lined out on it (4 or 500yds) ship another good broke dog or two in behind them. This helps the pup along as the other dog(s) catch up to them. If the pup knows what shes supposed to be on and its reinforced with some competition catching up from behind it decreases the chance of them "Squirreling" out on trash.

I know this is difficult if your free casting dogs etc...another option in that situation is keep the dog on a leash whether your a horse back or a foot and only let them go when the broke dogs are up and moving a good track. Again send another good broke dog in behind her once shes lined out a ways. This takes some effort but in the end its usually worth it.

Just a couple things that have helped me. Good luck it sounds like you may have a rock star on your hands if you can get her bent.
Mike Leonard
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:01 pm

Excellent advice Neal!

I will take the positive reinforcement over negative every time, and then add the competitive factor in there> Perfect!!
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SASS
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby SASS » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:31 pm

colobbcat wrote:Great analogy Mike in regards to the pain addiction we both know a hound with that issue!

Another way to deal with these stubborn hard running pups is set them up with positive reinforcement. Whether it be trainers or a Hot track. One technique I have found useful is send that pup down one with a good broke dog and once they both are lined out on it (4 or 500yds) ship another good broke dog or two in behind them. This helps the pup along as the other dog(s) catch up to them. If the pup knows what shes supposed to be on and its reinforced with some competition catching up from behind it decreases the chance of them "Squirreling" out on trash.

I know this is difficult if your free casting dogs etc...another option in that situation is keep the dog on a leash whether your a horse back or a foot and only let them go when the broke dogs are up and moving a good track. Again send another good broke dog in behind her once shes lined out a ways. This takes some effort but in the end its usually worth it.

Just a couple things that have helped me. Good luck it sounds like you may have a rock star on your hands if you can get her bent.


Great answer! I would try this right here, in fact I have just done this and am still doing this to a stubborn dog who was a skunk champion. Just frying him was not working, but putting him with straight dogs running good game has really helped.
Mike Leonard
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:49 pm

Good mentors is a time proven method. for those that don't have the luxury of a straight proven mentor dog or two it may require a bit more boot leather but it still can be done.



I remember many, many years ago when I was first starting out I ended up getting a pair of older pups from a guy for the tidy some of $30. for both. That goes to show how long ago this was. LOL!

Anyway these two had a ton of drive but would run anything that left a trail, and coyotes were their real passion. In the country I was living in then that usually meant lost dogs and many hours of driving and walking trying to get them back as this was long before I had tracking collars or e-collars.
My frustration was just about to get the best of me and I was about to give the hound game up for good when an old time hound hunter happened into my life. He had been a successful bobcat hunter for decades and he was well known in the area to be tops in his game.

He hunted with me a few times and after seeing what I was up against he took me aside and gave me some excellent advice.

He said: Now these young dogs have been trash running for a long time before you got them and I am not saying you can't get them broke but I think they will beak you first. Boy was he right!

He said if you had been able to start them when they were younger and correct them as you went along I think you could have made something from them but where they are right now I don't want to run my broke dogs with them because as wild as they are I am afraid they might mess everybody up.

These two males had been left to run on their own and the guy I got them from just let them go and if and when they came home it was ok with him.

I asked him for his advice. He said well I don't like to tell another fella what to do but if it was me I would get rid of those two and get yourself a good young unspoiled dog or two to work with.

Well that seemed easy enough but there were not a lot of hounds in that country and at that point in my young life I was not exactly on easy street when it came to the bank account or lack there of.

Sensing my dilemma he made a suggestion: If you will get rid of those two males I will work with you on a couple of young dogs I have to go forward with.

Great I said I will see if I can sell them. He shook his head and said, no that won't work, I don't want you passing on your trouble just like the guy that owned them before did to you. I mean get rid of them for good.

I caught his drift and although it was a bitter pill to swallow I followed thru, and was rewarded by getting a young un-hunted blue pup from him that turned out to be a life changer for me.

This dog didn't know the first thing but he had the breeding and with careful encouragement he started trailing right off the bat, and although he ran deer a few times I was able to work with him and show him what I wanted and what didn't please me and in less than a year he was check broke without the aid of shock collars, and he remained that way thru his entire life.

Once I had him straight it was easy enough to add another young dog with him and although not all of them were as easy to break as he was he helped me know when they were in the wrong and I was able to correct them early, and life took on new meaning.

You see I was just as trashy as those wild young hounds and I needed a mentor to show me the right way as well.........
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colobbcat
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby colobbcat » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:45 pm

There also is another factor in this idea of positive reinforcement. Along with the mentor type training i feel this positive experience needs to be repeated at least 5 or 6 times successfully before training collars are even hung on a young dogs neck.

ex...say you are trying to install a new computer program or some other electronic (frustrating/confusing/new to you SOB) devise. Now with all that going on in your already unsure mind introduce electronic stimulation every time you clicked the wrong box or plugged in the wrong wire or selected the wrong item on the menu....id be cowering under my desk never wanting to have anything to do with any of that shit again...but if you are allowed to explore your new program make some mistakes then go in and out of this several times successfully even though you may stumble, life is good. You feel confident in your new world or job and you have a platform or a foundation if you will to succeed.

Back to your young stubborn pup...if it was me id never hang a e-collar on her neck until she has made half a dozen successful hunts. Are you going to chase her all over hell and be frustrated? Your darn right!! That said she now has the confidence to be corrected because she knows whats right. She will probably even respond to a training aide now because shes not confused.

That goes hand in hand with how a dog is introduced to an e-collar....which is an entirely different topic, but a very critical one...IMO

Good thread.

I could elaborate on my theory of the introduction of e-collars but id like to hear some others opinions and or experiences...good and bad.
Mike Leonard
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:00 pm

Good stuff Neal, and I have witnessed first hand your successes so I know you are speaking from experience.


Speaking of introduction to shock collars, WOW! did I ever see a lot of good dogs ruined when these things first started to be standard equipment. When the first 1 mile trainer came out from Tri-Tronics I think many of us thought our trash problems were a thing of the past, but in many cases too much of the medicine ruined the patient.



How about using this thread as a launching pad to explain your theory on the introduction to E-collars?

I know I still have a lot to learn in that area.
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johnadamhunter
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby johnadamhunter » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Mike,you’re on the money with your last reply. Many times we forget that in order to get a desired response from the ecollar , we need to teach them what to do when they get the “stimulation “. This is best done at home in a controlled environment not in a hunting situation. Just my two bits worth.
John


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driftwood blue
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby driftwood blue » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:11 pm

I read the 2nd post Mike made and it rang a lot of bells.
It is surely a lot easier to stop the trash running before they get the habit of it. I usually give them early exposure to deer scent at about 4 months old-- using an electric fence and scent glands.. usually 2 doses will do the job and very seldom will they go for the 3rd.. but that is when you get creative to enforce the bad news.
yes those hard headed ones that have learned the joy of a hot race can surely make some of the best track dogs if you can ever get them broke to where you can trust them

a few years back the late Earnest Grote of Sandy had a young dog Bandit that ran loose on his ranch.. - Bandit thought it was his duty to run ever deer in that country..
well a good friend of mine "inherited" him when Earnest passed away.. he put him out on several herds of deer and got him to where he would quit and come in when he hit one... well My brother Allen got ol Bandit.

Bandit was a no fail track dog and made a better than 90 % tree dog.-- ugly as home made sin but one surely had to like him in the timber..those old cold January and Feb. tracks never got too long for him.

the bottom line is kinda like Mike said-- depends on how much patience and money you want to put out.
Best of luck
Don
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Re: Stubborn pup

Postby Uncle Dave » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:25 pm

Thanks for the comments thus far. Yes, I have been free casting her with the older dogs and that has been where I've had issues. The older ones give me the "heck no, wasn't me" look as she's hauling arse outta there. Surpringly we've jumped some deer before, giving her opportunity to sight chase but she has not. Must be the extra stink of elk that she likes.

She and my other dogs have all been introduced to the e-collar at home through normal obedience work. Basically, I tried to get them as solid as possible on leash doing here, sit, heel etc and then work the e collar in as a follow-up to that. I tried to make sure they know exactly what to do with obedience work prior to getting any e collar, which as mentioned above, could be my short coming in this case with the elk as she's only been into one lion.

Anyway, I think for now she will stay leashed up with me for a bit so that chasing elk doesnt become "the norm" in her eyes until I can dump onto a for sure lion trail to hopefully get that positive reinforcement prior to wearing out the Garmin buttons. Thanks for getting me straightened out

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