Washington Hound Hunters
I get sort of pissed when someone like me does what I did but so many other houndsmen(woman) out there don't do crap when it comes to standing up for our rights. They'll bitch and moan about the laws but DO NOT get involved. By all means, I am not fervent about the issue but went to a meeting down in Olympia (once), to show support and have sent a few emails. What I have done does not take much at all.
The fact is I have not hunted with my dog since I got him last year. I bought the drag and scent and training books, but my lazy butt just can't get out there. Whatever. I still believe hound hunters should have the same hunting abilities as other hunters and feel it's worth doing what I've done. I just wish others would do the same, we could get so much more done.
So spread the word. Get organized. And get people off their BUTTS! There's really no excuse.
Mr. XXXXXXX,
I received a copy of your comments associated with proposed hunting at night restrictions, which I thought were very concise. As you are probably aware, we pulled the rule from the three year package for further vetting and refinement. I attached the most current version (amended original proposal) in hopes that you would be willing to discuss it with me. While further vetting will most certainly occur, I thought I would start with an active member of the hound hunting community. The enforcement concerns with the current landscape may not be readily apparent, and I would like the opportunity to explain those.
Thank you for your consideration.
Mike Cenci, Deputy Chief
Washington Dept. of Fish and Wildlife
Law Enforcement Bureau
Washington Hound Hunters
-
redbone4me
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Washington Hound Hunters
"A Government Big Enough to Give You Everything You Want, is Big Enough to Take Everything Away You Have".
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
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redbone4me
- Bawl Mouth
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- Location: Washington
- Location: On The Right
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
what I originally wrote...
-Please do not include the proposed 'Hunting at Night Regulations & Penalties' in the permanent WDFW 2012-2014 Hunting Rules as written. They seriously threaten lawful and beneficial night time hunting opportunities for game (Raccoons, Coyotes and Bobcats) and unclassified (Bullfrogs and potentially Feral Pigs) wildlife. In addition, how effective these shortcuts will be in enforcement remains dubious.
According to the 2006 USFWS "National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife - Associated Recreation" 1.1 million hunters spent 15 million days and 0.2 billion dollars hunting 'other' animals. Based on the popularity of national groups like the United Kennel Club Coonhound programs, hundreds of thousands of these 'other' hunters are raccoon hound hunters.
Washington, likewise, has an active hound hunting community. The Washington State Hound Council is comprised of four regional clubs and has several hundred members statewide. Activities include off-season field trials and open-season buddy hunts. The regional Olympic Treehound Association's entry in the 2012 Shelton, WA holiday parade took first place.
I highly encourage the WDFW Commission, Enforcement, and Game staff to contact representatives from the Washington State Hound Council (President, Chet O'Brien) and other hunting groups to educate themselves on why these rules are highly egregious to already overlooked hunting families.
These rules were never discussed during public meetings nor are they within the scope of rules that were to be considered according to WDFW’s own issue scoping guidelines: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/ ... elines.pdf. Likewise their presence contradicts the press release dated February 07, 2012, which states “Only rules necessary for resource conservation, required by state or federal law, or requested by those affected were considered by WDFW.” (http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/feb0712a/). None of these conditions are true of the proposed Hunting at Night regulations.
As an agency, which - at its best, should be seeking to increase hunter opportunity, retention and recruitment while applying science based management fish and wildlife, the inclusion of these rules that are simultaneously redundant and restrictive, demonstrating the worst kind of narrow and shortsighted rules making.
I’m submitting the following critique of these rules as a Houndsman; one of millions in the US today. However, as an active member of the big and small game hunting and fishing community, I find these rules, intended to allegedly simplify WDFW enforcement’s job, an erosion of hunting rights and an application of the murkiest form of logic.
To my knowledge, currently, WDFW does not collect any data on raccoon, other mesopredator, and unclassified species hunting activities. I am sure that Raccoons, account for some of the largest volume of nuisance animal complaints, since they are not considered ‘dangerous’ animals little effort is made in the tracking of this information either. Without the collection of metrics WDFW cannot claim any sort of scientific management and by extension the impact of these rules on raccoons as a game species is completely unknown, although not by any means insignificant.
Obviously other night hunting activities will also be impacted by these rules. Like raccoon hunting these other night hunting activities may have long term benefits for healthy fish and wildlife populations.
WAC 232-12-063 Hunting at night--Regulations--Penalties.
(1)It is unlawful to hunt small game animals or unclassified wildlife at night, unless all of the following requirements are met:
(a) Artificial lights used in the hunting activity are not attached to or projected from any motor vehicle.
REDUNDANT: The published rules already state it is unlawful to use artificial light (spotlighting)when hunting Big Game, as is hunting ANY game at any time other than legal hunting hours with the exception of Raccoons, Bobcats, Coyotes and unclassified animals. Any person suspected of hunting ANY game animal illegally should be investigated by an enforcement officer.
(b) Shooting occurs at least fifty feet from a motor vehicle.
UNINFORMED: Most raccoon hound hunters spend a great deal of time training ‘rig dogs’ that detect or ‘strike’ upon the scent of their quarry from a moving vehicle. Once the rig dog has struck the dog(s) are unloaded to pursue the raccoon(s). Raccoon generally will tree at the first opportunity when pursued. This can easily be (or end up being) within 50 feet of a motor vehicle.
(c) Firearms are restricted to .22 caliber rifles and handguns, and shotguns are restricted to no. 6 shot or smaller. Hunting with bow and arrow is allowed.
UNINFORMED: While the .22 long rifle and .22 magnum round is by far the most popular caliber used in raccoon hunting, like with any dog training a young hound-in-training will eventually encounter their quarry on the ground and in these instance ensuring the raccoon is stone dead is advisable if the young hound isn’t to be attacked and ultimately ruined by a wounded raccoon. I find an O/U .22/.410 slug rifle very effective while training hounds. Although I don’t think it particularly humane to use #6 shot or smaller on 30-40 pound animals, this rule is especially poorly thought out considering nontoxic shot (steel-shot) rules. Hunters I known have used 7 or 9mm handguns, .227 or.228 rifles and some have gone ultra-traditional using .35 caliber muzzleloaders for raccoons.
Again, any person suspected of hunting ANY game animal illegally should be investigated by an enforcement officer.
(d) During the months of September, October, or November hunting does not occur in areas closed to hunting for deer or elk with centerfire rifles.
REDUNDANT: The published rules already state it is unlawful to hunt bobcat and raccoon at night in during the months of September, October or November in any area open to centerfire deer or elk season. Any person suspected of hunting ANY game animal illegally should be investigated by an enforcement officer.
(e) Hunting activity is further than five hundred yards from any structure or temporary habitation located on public land.
UNINFORMED: Safety buffers of 150 feet around buildings are common. 500 yards is nearly one third of a mile and would create a buffer around any structure or ‘temporary habitation’ over 162 acres in size. I doubt most public agencies, including WDFW, can even provide the public with detailed locations of all the structures on the land they manage. As a reality check: there are at least three structures on the 926 acres Scatter Creek Wildlife Area Unit, overlaps not withstanding that would be a total are of nearly 487 acres, over half of the Unit, that would be unavailable for hunting.
(f) The hunting activity occurs within published open seasons.
REDUNDANT: For obvious reasons.
Respectfully,
Kung Fu Master
-Please do not include the proposed 'Hunting at Night Regulations & Penalties' in the permanent WDFW 2012-2014 Hunting Rules as written. They seriously threaten lawful and beneficial night time hunting opportunities for game (Raccoons, Coyotes and Bobcats) and unclassified (Bullfrogs and potentially Feral Pigs) wildlife. In addition, how effective these shortcuts will be in enforcement remains dubious.
According to the 2006 USFWS "National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife - Associated Recreation" 1.1 million hunters spent 15 million days and 0.2 billion dollars hunting 'other' animals. Based on the popularity of national groups like the United Kennel Club Coonhound programs, hundreds of thousands of these 'other' hunters are raccoon hound hunters.
Washington, likewise, has an active hound hunting community. The Washington State Hound Council is comprised of four regional clubs and has several hundred members statewide. Activities include off-season field trials and open-season buddy hunts. The regional Olympic Treehound Association's entry in the 2012 Shelton, WA holiday parade took first place.
I highly encourage the WDFW Commission, Enforcement, and Game staff to contact representatives from the Washington State Hound Council (President, Chet O'Brien) and other hunting groups to educate themselves on why these rules are highly egregious to already overlooked hunting families.
These rules were never discussed during public meetings nor are they within the scope of rules that were to be considered according to WDFW’s own issue scoping guidelines: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/ ... elines.pdf. Likewise their presence contradicts the press release dated February 07, 2012, which states “Only rules necessary for resource conservation, required by state or federal law, or requested by those affected were considered by WDFW.” (http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/feb0712a/). None of these conditions are true of the proposed Hunting at Night regulations.
As an agency, which - at its best, should be seeking to increase hunter opportunity, retention and recruitment while applying science based management fish and wildlife, the inclusion of these rules that are simultaneously redundant and restrictive, demonstrating the worst kind of narrow and shortsighted rules making.
I’m submitting the following critique of these rules as a Houndsman; one of millions in the US today. However, as an active member of the big and small game hunting and fishing community, I find these rules, intended to allegedly simplify WDFW enforcement’s job, an erosion of hunting rights and an application of the murkiest form of logic.
To my knowledge, currently, WDFW does not collect any data on raccoon, other mesopredator, and unclassified species hunting activities. I am sure that Raccoons, account for some of the largest volume of nuisance animal complaints, since they are not considered ‘dangerous’ animals little effort is made in the tracking of this information either. Without the collection of metrics WDFW cannot claim any sort of scientific management and by extension the impact of these rules on raccoons as a game species is completely unknown, although not by any means insignificant.
Obviously other night hunting activities will also be impacted by these rules. Like raccoon hunting these other night hunting activities may have long term benefits for healthy fish and wildlife populations.
WAC 232-12-063 Hunting at night--Regulations--Penalties.
(1)It is unlawful to hunt small game animals or unclassified wildlife at night, unless all of the following requirements are met:
(a) Artificial lights used in the hunting activity are not attached to or projected from any motor vehicle.
REDUNDANT: The published rules already state it is unlawful to use artificial light (spotlighting)when hunting Big Game, as is hunting ANY game at any time other than legal hunting hours with the exception of Raccoons, Bobcats, Coyotes and unclassified animals. Any person suspected of hunting ANY game animal illegally should be investigated by an enforcement officer.
(b) Shooting occurs at least fifty feet from a motor vehicle.
UNINFORMED: Most raccoon hound hunters spend a great deal of time training ‘rig dogs’ that detect or ‘strike’ upon the scent of their quarry from a moving vehicle. Once the rig dog has struck the dog(s) are unloaded to pursue the raccoon(s). Raccoon generally will tree at the first opportunity when pursued. This can easily be (or end up being) within 50 feet of a motor vehicle.
(c) Firearms are restricted to .22 caliber rifles and handguns, and shotguns are restricted to no. 6 shot or smaller. Hunting with bow and arrow is allowed.
UNINFORMED: While the .22 long rifle and .22 magnum round is by far the most popular caliber used in raccoon hunting, like with any dog training a young hound-in-training will eventually encounter their quarry on the ground and in these instance ensuring the raccoon is stone dead is advisable if the young hound isn’t to be attacked and ultimately ruined by a wounded raccoon. I find an O/U .22/.410 slug rifle very effective while training hounds. Although I don’t think it particularly humane to use #6 shot or smaller on 30-40 pound animals, this rule is especially poorly thought out considering nontoxic shot (steel-shot) rules. Hunters I known have used 7 or 9mm handguns, .227 or.228 rifles and some have gone ultra-traditional using .35 caliber muzzleloaders for raccoons.
Again, any person suspected of hunting ANY game animal illegally should be investigated by an enforcement officer.
(d) During the months of September, October, or November hunting does not occur in areas closed to hunting for deer or elk with centerfire rifles.
REDUNDANT: The published rules already state it is unlawful to hunt bobcat and raccoon at night in during the months of September, October or November in any area open to centerfire deer or elk season. Any person suspected of hunting ANY game animal illegally should be investigated by an enforcement officer.
(e) Hunting activity is further than five hundred yards from any structure or temporary habitation located on public land.
UNINFORMED: Safety buffers of 150 feet around buildings are common. 500 yards is nearly one third of a mile and would create a buffer around any structure or ‘temporary habitation’ over 162 acres in size. I doubt most public agencies, including WDFW, can even provide the public with detailed locations of all the structures on the land they manage. As a reality check: there are at least three structures on the 926 acres Scatter Creek Wildlife Area Unit, overlaps not withstanding that would be a total are of nearly 487 acres, over half of the Unit, that would be unavailable for hunting.
(f) The hunting activity occurs within published open seasons.
REDUNDANT: For obvious reasons.
Respectfully,
Kung Fu Master
"A Government Big Enough to Give You Everything You Want, is Big Enough to Take Everything Away You Have".
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
-
redbone4me
- Bawl Mouth
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- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:11 pm
- Location: Washington
- Location: On The Right
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
The response from my original email
Dear Kung Fu Master
Thank you for contacting the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Based on the public comment, we are no longer recommending a change in the night hunting rules.
Thank you for your comments.
Wildlife Program Customer Service
Dear Kung Fu Master
Thank you for contacting the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Based on the public comment, we are no longer recommending a change in the night hunting rules.
Thank you for your comments.
Wildlife Program Customer Service
"A Government Big Enough to Give You Everything You Want, is Big Enough to Take Everything Away You Have".
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
nicely done.
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Hochlander
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:02 pm
- Location: Washington
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
Hey, two favors: will you post Cenci's revised proposal language (I think you sent it to me but I don't want to steal your glory) and would you follow up with him to clarify if his plan is to resubmit the proposal BEFORE the April Commission vote or if he is just planning ahead to the next three year package.
My concern, obviously, is that he will try and resubmit and I believe the no shooting within 50 feet and the no lights from/on vehicles is in the 'new' proposed rule.
Thanks.
My concern, obviously, is that he will try and resubmit and I believe the no shooting within 50 feet and the no lights from/on vehicles is in the 'new' proposed rule.
Thanks.
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George Streepy
- Open Mouth
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Re: Washington Hound Hunters
I attended the Wildlife Commission meeting in Moses Lake when WDFW proposed their rule changes for the three year package. The night hunting rule changes were not proposed to the commission. WDFW said that although they have some ongoing concerns about the current rule, they weren't proposing any changes at this time. They will be able to try again in three years. The way it is set up I don't think they can just try and sneak them in now.
There were quite a few hound hunters as well as other sportsman around the state that stood up and made their concerns known. That is why the rules did not go through. I have some literature here, and there is audio recordings of the commission meeting available on their web page that states WDFW is not seeking a night hunting rule change. The cougar rule revisions and report recordings are also available online. If you all the have the time, I suggest listening to them. It is awful boring at times but useful information while pondering what houndsmen should do from here.
I am still a bit in shock over the coyote hunting getting slid out from under us. I still don't understand how I never heard a thing about it until it was gone. I am sure others did but at the time I was probably hunting or focusing on some of the others pressing things in life. It was a real eye opener to me. Hopefully we can all communicate well and keep our eyes on these issues.
Redbone4me-- I know it sometimes feels lonely out there but there are others working towards preserving hound hunting. We need to all get together from time to time.
There were quite a few hound hunters as well as other sportsman around the state that stood up and made their concerns known. That is why the rules did not go through. I have some literature here, and there is audio recordings of the commission meeting available on their web page that states WDFW is not seeking a night hunting rule change. The cougar rule revisions and report recordings are also available online. If you all the have the time, I suggest listening to them. It is awful boring at times but useful information while pondering what houndsmen should do from here.
I am still a bit in shock over the coyote hunting getting slid out from under us. I still don't understand how I never heard a thing about it until it was gone. I am sure others did but at the time I was probably hunting or focusing on some of the others pressing things in life. It was a real eye opener to me. Hopefully we can all communicate well and keep our eyes on these issues.
Redbone4me-- I know it sometimes feels lonely out there but there are others working towards preserving hound hunting. We need to all get together from time to time.
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Hochlander
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:02 pm
- Location: Washington
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
Here is the link to the audio for folks:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2012/
Sometimes they will even stream video on TVW.
You can also see some of the comments folks made by going into the agenda and following the PUBLIC INPUT link.
I am not trying to nitpick (we are on the same side) and I might be mildly paranoid but I want to make this clarification: The Game Division staff did not RECOMMEND the adoption of the proposed rules for the reason George states, but becuase they were proposed originally the Commission will vote. 99.999% of the time the Commission votes per the recommendation but because these proposed rules were introducted by the Enforcement Division there are some internal sensitivity and politiking. So it is possible, although unlikely, that the rules will be modified and resubmitted before the vote at the April 13-14th meeting.
I'm really trying as hard as I can. People should follow up with Mike Cenci or Dave Ware at WDFW if they are unsure.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2012/
Sometimes they will even stream video on TVW.
You can also see some of the comments folks made by going into the agenda and following the PUBLIC INPUT link.
I am not trying to nitpick (we are on the same side) and I might be mildly paranoid but I want to make this clarification: The Game Division staff did not RECOMMEND the adoption of the proposed rules for the reason George states, but becuase they were proposed originally the Commission will vote. 99.999% of the time the Commission votes per the recommendation but because these proposed rules were introducted by the Enforcement Division there are some internal sensitivity and politiking. So it is possible, although unlikely, that the rules will be modified and resubmitted before the vote at the April 13-14th meeting.
I'm really trying as hard as I can. People should follow up with Mike Cenci or Dave Ware at WDFW if they are unsure.
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Hochlander
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- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:02 pm
- Location: Washington
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redbone4me
- Bawl Mouth
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- Location: Washington
- Location: On The Right
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
"A Government Big Enough to Give You Everything You Want, is Big Enough to Take Everything Away You Have".
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
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George Streepy
- Open Mouth
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:39 pm
- Location: Washington
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
Redbone4me,
Can you tell me the date that new proposal was sent to you? Everything is already illegal except the light coming from a vehicle. Shooting from a publicly maintained road is illegal but this would make a private road illegal too. I am not that worried about the new proposal except the times when a guy is driving around with a flashlight looking for dogs. Guaranteed a ticket, even though not really spotlighting. I was just curious when this was sent to you?
Thank you,
George
Can you tell me the date that new proposal was sent to you? Everything is already illegal except the light coming from a vehicle. Shooting from a publicly maintained road is illegal but this would make a private road illegal too. I am not that worried about the new proposal except the times when a guy is driving around with a flashlight looking for dogs. Guaranteed a ticket, even though not really spotlighting. I was just curious when this was sent to you?
Thank you,
George
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redbone4me
- Bawl Mouth
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Re: Washington Hound Hunters
George Streepy-I sent you a PM
"A Government Big Enough to Give You Everything You Want, is Big Enough to Take Everything Away You Have".
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
so if you dont have a firearm on or with you is it considered hunting?
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redbone4me
- Bawl Mouth
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Re: Washington Hound Hunters
[quote="mofo21"]so if you dont have a firearm on or with you is it considered hunting?[/quote
Would you be carrying a bow and arrow? If so, yes. If you just carried a knife in your mouth, probably not. Spear? Probably. Big rock? Probably not.
Would you be carrying a bow and arrow? If so, yes. If you just carried a knife in your mouth, probably not. Spear? Probably. Big rock? Probably not.
"A Government Big Enough to Give You Everything You Want, is Big Enough to Take Everything Away You Have".
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
-
George Streepy
- Open Mouth
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:39 pm
- Location: Washington
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
The night hunting rule changes are not in front of the Wildlife Commission at this time. There will be some version proposed to the commission in the future but nothing right now. WDFW are trying to determine the best proposal that wouldn't effect honest people but still make enforcement easier.
I think the new proposal that Redbone4me has isn't so bad. It runs right along with night hunting rules in the states around us. I emailed them with my concern about using a flashlight to follow or locate hounds, and how that would be effected by the new night hunting draft. I asked about a candle power restriction but that would be hard to enforce.
What does everyone else think of the new draft?
I think the new proposal that Redbone4me has isn't so bad. It runs right along with night hunting rules in the states around us. I emailed them with my concern about using a flashlight to follow or locate hounds, and how that would be effected by the new night hunting draft. I asked about a candle power restriction but that would be hard to enforce.
What does everyone else think of the new draft?
Re: Washington Hound Hunters
the new proposal is better than the old one but would rather not see it change at all. i use spotlights a lot to check out creek bottoms and find new hunting spots and always have some type of weapon on me whether it be just my concealed weapon or a rifle in the truck. all it seems to be is make the game wardens job easier. if someone wants to use a spotlight to shoot a deer etc illegally i doubt this law is going to stop them from doing it. they must be getting tired of pulling me and my friends over just to let us go because we arent doing anything illegal..
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