TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Talk about Cougar Hunting with Dogs
Mike Leonard
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TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby Mike Leonard » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:44 pm

I have had numerous reports from various areas from lion hunters telling me the tom lions in their areas are just not leaving scrapes or markers at all. We know this is a means of marking territory, and also leaving calling cards for female lions looking for a mate. It has been pretty routine and normal behavior and the subject of many lion hunter's fireside chats.

One hunter who does some hunting south of the border in old Mexico said that the toms and he catches plenty of them just don't scrape. He said deer are scarce and the cats do a lot of traveling and also when the big tom jaguars come into an area and start roaring and calling the lions just leave out till things get quiet again.

I have had some hunters that hunt in pretty heavy wolf pack areas tell me the lions are not leaving markers like they use to.

In areas that have really had the female populations of lions cropped out I am hearing some of the same stories.

So I thought I would throw this out there and see what other hunters are seeing and what their theory is about this.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby BAR BAR 2 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:11 pm

Mike, I have been hearing for the past several years about rattlesnakes not being as prone to rattle in the the presence of danger. I haven't seen this myself, but it has been relayed to me by several people who's opinions and observations I trust. Some have said this phenomena is most true in areas where there is the most hunting pressure on the snakes, such as places where they have the annual rattlesnake roundups.

Taking the above at face value and assuming the snakes are evolving due to hunting pressure, it wouldn't be unheard of for an animal to change its behavior because of people trespassing through its territory. Could the fact that lions are not making scrapes like they are known for be due to hunting pressure and/or people traipsing through its range? I believe that we are all constantly evolving and learning new ways to survive. A mountain lion not posting a billboard as to his presence may just be a new way for it to get along in an area that may have more activity that it isn't historically used to.

I would be really interested to learn the reason behind this.



Tex
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby Mike Leonard » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:31 pm

A lot of guys down south have told me the hogs got so thick and that they eat rattlesnakes so the snakes went quiet. Not sure if that is true but if the pigs do eat them snakes that is one thing they are good for. LOL!
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby pegleg » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:06 pm

Many areas I've seen this there is zero hunting pressure. Seems odd but those cats do what they do .
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby macedonia mule man » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:26 pm

Hogs definitely love snakes. When I was a kid we would catch snakes and throw them in the hog pen, I never saw a snake make it out. When the hogs moved into south Louisiana where I hunt , the snake population is down to near nothing.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby macedonia mule man » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:41 pm

Mike, iv hunted in the south all my life and have never been bitten by a snake. Iv walked on then, walked by them on brush or stumps. May have been struck at but didn't know it. They are usually trying to get out of the way. I have walked up on a few blunt tail cottonmouth that put on a show of agrssion but wouldn't strike unless you touched him with a stick. I know they will bite and may get bit next time I go, but it is very rare around here and there are a lot of man hours spent in the woods around here. Most people get bit working in flower bed.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby horshur » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:42 pm

Mike for what its worth and probably not very much I have not found a consistent pattern in how and why Toms scratch. Here they have not for two years but it was stupid how much the year previous ..I can say that every three years or so there is a lot of marking but very little in the mean time....There are generational families of cougar hunters that wouldn't know a scatch to look at it and look at you funny to mention it. It is not even anything they have seen before..it took several years hunting cougar before I seen my first one. this is southcentral BC.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby Mike Leonard » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:50 pm

Very interesting on the snakes.

I have one particular tom on the ranch that has been around for several years. I know his travel routes and he has a pretty even pattern. I have trailed him some but just like the day before yesterday I was about 36 hours behind him and the dirt was fairly good for our area but still a lot of clay and sand. The dogs pounded and pounded on it and we were able to stay right with them on the horses as slow as they were going. Not a single scrape was found along his line. The rain and wind came in on us and we gave it up for the day. I knew of a female that was very close to where we struck him so we came in from a different angle yesterday morning and rode right up on her, I mean I saw her bolt at about 400 yards. And those dogs could hardly even bark on her track until we followed her half a mile not sure why but when they finally did get to her lay up area she had several pretty small kittens cached up there. We pulled the dogs and left but it seems like those females that are in a pretty undisturbed area where the dominant tom is not often displaced just seem to know when he is about and when they don't want to see him they stay hid out, and they leave very little scent. go figure dogs trail a 36 hour old track the day before and next day can't hardly move the track of a female that was right there. Lion hunting?????


My guess if we had killed that tom in a short time another tom would be coming around and scraping trying to drum up some action.

Just a theory, but it keeps it interesting.....
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby double j » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:32 pm

Mike,
I killed a big tom here about a month ago hardly seen any scrapes been after this one for a while he didn't act like a lion should. Last couple of years hardly scrape and when he made a kill he would eat what he wanted and leave. Never covering the kill or hanging out to eat later. Two weeks later another tom has moved in scrapes everywhere, kills covered acting like he's suposed to.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby pegleg » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:37 pm

That's interesting. Maybe I'm missing the dominant tom . but I ve taken quite a number of cats out of these areas and spent some time in there. Granted tracking conditions are far from ideal . maybe there are bigger toms in these areas and I'm just missing them but that seems unlikely satellite toms would be in that thick.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:28 pm

double j
I have seen that same behavior and usually these old big territorial or dominant toms in their prime have a lot of ground to cover to check on their ranges so they mostly eat fast food. Not much need to scrape as he is well known and he knows where the gals hang out. New guy in town is passing out cards and raising general Cain with the other tom's ladies and trying his best to eliminate those pesky kids so he can plant his own seed there.

The harvest of one of these big dominant toms can throw a fairly stable area into a tail spin for awhile. Sure other toms will come younger ones or maybe even an old guy that can last awhile before he is killed or displaced by a tom in his prime.

A lot of dynamics in the cougars life and when you throw in a bunch of hunters and barking dogs it is no wonder that they have to be pretty sneaky just to survive as a species.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby dirtydan » Wed May 04, 2016 9:35 pm

This is just my very non professional opinion. I have always been under the impression that only dominant tom lions will leave markers. I have never trailed a young tom that left any and I believe they are traveling under the radar as to not alert a more dominant tom. I believe when a tom locates a potential mate he will mark her area to let others know she has been claimed. I believe the female will urinate at his markers and he will routinely check them until he smells she is ready. I also believe other toms will check these markers and if they feel they are tough enough they will mark at his marker to initiate the fight. If there are more than one mature dominant tom laying claim to the same real estate then you will find lots and lots of markers until one of them holds the deed to the land.

With all that being said i truly believe the overkill of lions is the reason for the lack of markers left. Most of the tom lions we trail are recruits and less mature males. Honestly I just dont think there are many mature dominant toms left to leave markers. I've also noticed in the past few years the toms to be flat ass covering ground never even slowing to hunt. Its as if they are cutting for female tracks on every fresh snow just like I am cutting for tom tracks. I trailed quite a few tom tracks and hit female tracks and the tom hits it like a hound a trails her up. Just seems like i trail them now and they never hit a female track. Kinda sad when they know exactly where to look and cant even find a female. I do still find markers around a couple of resident females i keep tabs on. I believe there is a dominant tom who claims them as it is in a no hunting area and he has reached maturity. Other than that i believe all we have left are juvenile and recruit toms that dont own any territory therefore dont mark what isnt theirs. This is the same reason i believe the fella said he sees these markers come and go in three year intervals as it probably takes those three years for a tom to take claim to that ground. I'm sure lots of other toms move through that ground in those three years they just havent claimed it as theirs.

These markers are a controversial topic and these are just my opionions i've formed by hunting lions in southern new mexico.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby jbc67 » Fri May 06, 2016 3:06 pm

What an awesome thread.
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby pegleg » Sun May 08, 2016 5:21 am

Maybe young toms don't scrape near older toms. But I think there's more to it Then that. The area I've been hunting hasn't had any lions harvested in the memory of the owners or their families. With the exception of a young Tom shot out of a tree near a ranch yard four years ago. And as I hunt out I'm finding the same on ranch after ranch. The other surprise is the shear number of calf and colt kills. I always take any stories of mass stock killing as exaggerations. But they are sure feeding on them just as heavily or more then deer. I'm starting to think there's alot of truth in the mothers being responsible for this. I have a friend who is adamant he won't call unless a lion kills a few calves in a row. In 15 years only once have I taken dogs to his place. He thinks some lions just kill stock others don't. I think he's partially right but think what the mother views as prey gets passed on is the real explanation of the menu difference. There's one ranch whose broodmares haven't managed to raise a single foal in several years. A neighbor looses as many calves but hasn't lost a foal yet. Guess I'll never truely know but will keep the theories
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Re: TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

Postby Mike Leonard » Mon May 09, 2016 1:18 pm

Nathan,

I see the same thing in our area. We have a pretty good number of mule deer in there but we seldom find a deer kill and usually when we do it is a young deer and appears to be the work of coyotes. However we will find elk kills often in the same area where deer are abundant. It appears that the females have been raised preferring elk and they just pass it along. A lot of time the lions will feed on these elk when it is cool weather until they are just about all cleaned up and leave very little for the scavengers.

About 12 miles as the crow flies there is another spot that is thick with deer and also has plenty of elk. The rancher reports mass killing on deer but he reports about the only elk kills he ever finds appear to be the work of a traveling tom passing thru. They feed once or twice and just leave a lot of it for the scavengers. When heavy snows hit this area the deer just migrate out of there down into lower desert sage country but quite a few elk remain, and it seems the lions just pull out of that area and follow the deer. No livestock losses reported in that area, but out in the desert if the deer really get scattered an occasional young feral horse will be killed.

Hard to figure these lions but their feeding habits do seem to vary from area to area.
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