Chain training (continued)

A Place to talk about hunting Bobcats, Lynx.
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:57 pm

david wrote:
lawdawgharris wrote:...I’ve had 2 dogs snared around the neck over the years while hog hunting. They weren't hurt because they were smart enough not to tighten it down and just sat and barked.


For any new to this sport and who may keep your dogs in a kennel, this is why you MUST tie your dogs out and get them used to being tied.
Watch your dog the first time he is ever restrained with a chain. That behavior could kill him in a snare...

...Some hounds never quit lunging. I don’t like that type of dog, and he would have to be amazing in other ways for me to keep him.


macedonia mule man wrote:Never had a dog neck snared, but all the dogs I chained out settled Down in about 5 min. Believe they would do the same in neck snare. Might chew their leg in leg snare.



al baldwin wrote:There are good reasons to have dogs chain broke, but can tell you for sure chain broke dogs have choked to death in a short time when caught in a snare that was not spring loaded. Some just panic and pull the snare tighter. Sure not trying to sell anyone short on their knowledge. Al


It’s tragic Al. And I hate hearing about that. And every word I wrote about chain training in another thread was to try and give dogs the tools they might need to survive.

macedonia mule man wrote:Cabin fever is setting in a little early in North Dakota this year.


al baldwin wrote: David, you should write fiction novels. But you are entertaining. Al




I am happy you two have each other. But, I decided not to ignore you guys. At least for now.

I have graduated from an old man to a grumpy old man. I’m grumpy Al. I’m grumpy Macedonia mule man.

If you guys make statements that I wouldn’t want to be the final word for some sixteen year old kid to read sixteen years from now, then, I will probably say something. If you make a statement about curs that I feel is Hound biased and not accurate, for example, I will probably challenge it. Because sixteen years from now there might be a sixteen year old read it and base his decisions on it. And I wouldn’t want him to miss out on the Cur experience because of it.

I can’t tell if you guys are trying to convince people to not chain train their dogs or what???

But just in case, I am going to tell that sixteen year old sixteen years from now to go ahead and do it. Because there are a lot of dogs that will be helped by it, and there are even dogs whose lives might be saved by it. And there are those whose lives won’t be saved by it, and they don’t get to have babies after that.

I do all I can to give a dog survival tools. But there are some dogs I just can’t help Al. And I won’t keep those dogs any more. Have not for twenty years or more.

If I need dogs, I will seek out breeders like this:

lawdawgharris wrote:...I’ve had 2 dogs snared around the neck over the years while hog hunting. They weren't hurt because they were smart enough not to tighten it down and just sat and barked.


I am around livestock a lot. And one of my pet peeves is that we help our animals too much. And by doing that we weaken the gene pool terribly. There are breeds that cannot even give birth without help. Nor can the babies survive without help.

Now we have dogs that cannot find their way home and kill themselves at every opportunity.

Do the best you can 16 year old young man. Give your dog every survival tool you can; including coming to you the very instant you call him. You can even train your dog to fear approaching cars and hide. It is simple with a shock collar. Train him not to pull against a snare if there still are snares around when you read this. Do the best you can. And leave the rest up to The laws of nature.

Natural Selection
mark
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 pm
Location: OR.

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby mark » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:42 pm

Not a fan of kennels so for the vast majority of my life the dogs have been on chains. 6’ of chain with a good swivel in the middle. A dog collar and a snare are two different things completely. Dogs on a chain with a collar can and will lunge at times. ie a barn cat walks by the dog lot,very few dogs i have owned would sit at the end of the chain and bark as they watch the cat stroll by. I personally dont see a very game driven dog get in a snare and sit in one place when it starts tighten up and listen to the rest of the dogs scream away. Thats just my opinion after replacing a lot of S hooks and swivels and snaps in my life. I think there are a lot of good things that come with a dog being chain broke but i wouldnt put a lot of faith in it keeping a dog alive in a snare
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:53 pm

mark wrote: ie a barn cat walks by the dog lot,very few dogs i have owned would sit at the end of the chain and bark as they watch the cat stroll by.


The clay dogs barely even notice a barn cat let alone pull on a chain or bark. Maybe they are not game driven. Or not smart enough to know that is a cat and they are cat dogs so they should jerk the chain and bark their heads off.

Nor have the dogs I have owned in recent years. Maybe they weren’t game driven either.

Evidently it doesn’t take game driven dogs to catch bobcats. So that is a bonus.

We just do the best we can.
And part of that is chain training a kenneled dog. In my opinion. Because some dogs can be saved by it. And some dogs Have Been saved by it. And some can’t be saved by it. And they don’t get to have babies after that.
Last edited by david on Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
mark
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 pm
Location: OR.

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby mark » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:05 am

Ok cancel the barn cat and replace it with a bobcat or lion
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:09 am

mark wrote:Ok cancel the barn cat and replace it with a bobcat or lion


Ok you got me mark. Uncle.

Folks, don’t waist your time with chain training a kenneled dog. If they are any game driven they will die young any way. So keep a whole bunch of them.

Or else buy two good ones from lawdawgharris.
Because evidently his dogs are not game driven either. So they should make good bobcat dogs.


lawdawgharris wrote:...I’ve had 2 dogs snared around the neck over the years while hog hunting. They weren't hurt because they were smart enough not to tighten it down and just sat and barked.
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:31 am

mark wrote:Thats just my opinion after replacing a lot of S hooks and swivels and snaps in my life.


mark, it’s just a guess, but I bet those dogs would make you some dandy bear dogs.
Game driven!
mark
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 pm
Location: OR.

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby mark » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:12 am

Im not sure what i did to upset you,i just voiced my opinion on a subject that unbeknownst to me you were the only one that knows anything about it. Nothing i said was aimed at you or your dogs or the Clays dogs. But just for shits and giggles lets hang a bunch of snares in a fence and turn a “bobcat” loose in front of your dogs and give it enough lead they dont catch it before the femce and see how many dogs survive the snares.
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:58 am

I’m not at all upset mark.

I’m grumpy.

I’m a grumpy old man

Started this thread out grumpy.

I was hoping people would see that at the beginning of this thread.

I probably should take a timeout and see if I ever get not grumpy again.

I have never lost a dog to a snare or a trap or a car or wolf. Hunted in the middle of all of them. Just lucky I guess.
Last edited by david on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
mark
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 pm
Location: OR.

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby mark » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:17 am

Well dangitt David stop being grumpy!!!!!! Its a lot easier to be happy. I have never lost a dog to a snare either but i had a dog get in one years ago and luckily it was right along side the road and i was roading the dogs to clean them out. I saw the whole thing happen. She was a dog that had been on a chain from the time she was old enough to tie out.she was a very level headed dog and was only in the snare maybe 30 seconds by the time i got to her. She wasnt fighting it at all but it was already tight enough to choke her out shortly.
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:29 am

If she wasn’t fighting it at all Mark, I’m going to guess that is because she had been tied a lot. And if there was any chance at all of her surviving that snare, and I beleive there is a chance of that, it would have been because this was not the first time she was ever restrained. Far from it.

Why not give dogs that chance of survival.

I have snared dozens of animals. Most of them problem beaver, so maybe it is not a good example. But 100% of the beaver I have snared where very much alive in the snare. And a lot of times sleeping and appearantly comfortable. And the snare was VERY tight.
Very tight.

Maybe your dog would have died. But if she would have lived, and dogs often do, it would have been because she had been tied.
al baldwin
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1133
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: OREGON

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby al baldwin » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:00 am

David I sure never meant to belittle you in any way, meet you once & actually liked you.
Our late friend Wendell Smith was the last person I knew that lost a good dog to a snare. Wendell stated he was walking right near that dog when it got in that snare, had another hunter with him, both tried to get the dog out before it died, but failed. Wendell was devastated. What more can I say. Also heard of a couple more dogs dying from snares in this area, all these dogs were very chain broke.
David I do not hate curs or any other breed of dogs, I will own and hunt any dog that can help me catch . Hope you good health & hunting Al David, I have snared a few problem beaver also, never found one dead, also never snared a beaver around its neck.
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:15 am

It's devastating Al, it always makes me sad to hear of something like that.
The circumstances sound awful. What, they couldnt get the snare loosened?

You guys reading this need to get a snare and a conibear trap and a leg hold trap and practice with them. be able to open them in your sleep. I said I never lost a dog to a trap or snare. That doesn't mean they have never been in one. I cant imagine the horror of being right there and unable to do anything about it through lack of experience.

A very high number of people who die by drowning, knew how to swim. It's tragic and I wish I could have saved them. But, I will still be teaching my children how to swim. And in fact, my son could swim before he could walk. He had no fear of water. and panic is what kills many who drown. There may come a day when that conditioning could actually help him out of danger. Might not. but it could. It has saved my life simply because I felt no panic when others did.

Chain broke dogs have died in snares. Maybe they didn't panic and they still died. I don't know. I was not there. but I will still be chain training all my dogs. every one of them. For the rest of my life. And not only mine, but any pups I can get my hands on.

I can't even believe I am defending this. What I really can’t beleive is that I would ever need to. I want my children to be able to wipe their own bottom and I want my dogs chain broke. I just saw myself defending this and cracked up. you guys do what ever makes sense to you.
I'M out.
mark
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 pm
Location: OR.

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby mark » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:16 am

David, all my dogs are chain broke as soon as they start getting to far from home and getting in trouble, usually around 4-5 months of age. I would never raise a dog without being able to tie them out. The dog that i had get in a snare was exellent on the chain but that day she was running down the road like always and checking everything out when she came to a heavily used elk trail leaving the road at a 45 degree angle. The trapper had a snare hanging from a small windfall log and had brushed the snare in some. The dog was just trotting at a normal pace and went under the log instead of over it (it would of been about a 2 ft jump for her to go over) just the momentum she had was enough to tighten the snare enough to cut all of her air off. She couldnt of stopped fast enough to prevent that. She never wigged out but she definantly knew something wasnt right and was trying back away from it when i got there.
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2390
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby david » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:56 am

https://youtu.be/j1MVqFYfIhw How to remove a snare from your hunting dog. How to recognize likely snare locations. South Dakota fish and game

https://youtu.be/5wZgA40X3gA (Cable lock explained). Two labs Released from snares.
Alive

https://youtu.be/CS9TpDgRMl4 Go to 1:22 (one minute 22 seconds into the video)
Solid neck caught coyote sitting waiting patiently to bite someone’s face off.
Smart dog.
Alive

https://vimeo.com/90911489 Alaska fish and wildlife. How to remove snare from your dog

https://youtu.be/BtEOQv-FCI8 At 4:00 (4 minutes into the video)
Border Collie released from a snare unharmed
Alive

https://youtu.be/TrNlTnXhqFc
Wild canine wearing a snare. He had twisted and pulled very hard. Neck cut bad.
Alive

“February 2019, Kelowna, BC
Boss was fortunate to survive the grasp of a snare trap in the Kelowna area. According to his guardian, Boss was out for a walk in an area popular with recreationlists and dog walkers - a local kennel club visits the area regularly, he said. No warning signs were posted, the snare was baited, and Conservation Officers verified that it was a legally set trap. (Source: Castanet.net)”
Alive

https://youtu.be/K6hbrIgd1eM snared coyote. Alive

https://youtu.be/QoHWoTas3KI snared coyote at 3:30 into the video.
Alive

https://youtu.be/sAfBg0xFd7M snared coyote.
Alive

https://youtu.be/FwwsejKbYV4 Snared coyote stepped through.
Alive

https://youtu.be/jvbOlupELO8 snared coyote. Alive

If you need more, there are hundreds of stories of dogs taken out of snares alive. (Do your own research). I have been hearing them since the seventies. Dog owners and trappers are happy to tell these stories. And yes, I am sure they did not tell me the unhappy stories. There might be just as many. I don’t know.

And I bet there are a million photos and videos taken by proud young trappers of coyote and fox in snares. Alive. For many, this is their first coyote or fox because they are easy to snare; Hard to trap by comparison. And a live one makes a more interesting photo than a dead one.

Cable cutters on amazon: If you don’t know how to open a snare. With these you don’t need to know how. (Pliers/side cutters don’t work to cut cable). Very expensive but slick. I’ve had mine since the eighties. Still cuts cable like it’s kite string. Just don’t use them for other things. Cable only. At times I have had to use them to take the snare off beaver because they had the cable so twisted behind the lock.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=c7+cable+cut ... 6_11126241

“Unless the dog can be resuscitated within minutes, death will occur. Generally speaking, a dog cannot survive if the brain and other organs are deprived of oxygen for more than about four to six minutes.Aug 15, 2019”

I have never tried big bolt cutters on a connibear trap. But I bet it would work. (they will not work on cable, at all). If you don’t want to learn how to open a connibear, might not hurt to have a pair of long handled bolt cutters in your truck. I heard someone call these a “master key”. But it looks like you might have a couple minutes to get them out and save a dog that is caught in a connibear set in a culvert by the road or something. Actually, even if you know how to open them, it can be difficult, and if I was close to the truck, I think I would grab the bolt cutters. I bet you could cut through it four times in about Six seconds.
But really if you cut once on each spring, that would release the pressure and you could force it open or slide the rings to the hinge and open it.

I came across a story of a dog that came home wearing a connibear trap. I can only beleive it did not get a true hold on his throat. But don’t give up, even if the dog seems dead. I had one hang (it was Rachel) and she was out, and I thought Dead. I did my best with mouth to mouth (mouth to nose, more accurately) and cpr, and she revived and lived for years. Don’t give up!!!!!!

“If performing CPR alone, give your dog artificial respiration after each set of 15 compressions. Begin by sealing the dog's lips. Place your hand over the dog's muzzle and ensure the mouth is completely closed. Next, place your mouth over the dog's nostrils and blow gently, watching for the chest to lift and expand.”
lawdawgharris
Tight Mouth
Tight Mouth
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:31 am
Location: US Texas

Re: Chain training (continued)

Postby lawdawgharris » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:13 pm

Mark what you said about momentum is exactly what I have thinking was the difference in yours and David's argument. I honestly believe both of you are correct. Chain breaking doesn't guarantee surviving a snare especially if they have enough momentum that they can't stop before it's too late, and more especially if you aren't right there when it happens. David is correct too in thinking that chain breaking serves many purposes and I personally believe it helps in the event that a dog realizes he is snares. Many dogs will hit the end of chains and what not but they still recognize their limit. In pursuit of game woud definitely create too much momentum more than likely. Those dogs that would be hitting the end of the chains doing back flips over a cat or whatever don't stand there doing back flips when there isn't that cat or whatever that they are wanting to pursue because they understand their limitations. So again, my two cents worth is you are both right just looking at from two different angles.

Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk

Return to “Bobcat/Lynx Hunting”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests