Question from a green Horne

A place to talk about coyote Hunting with dogs
hillbilly boy
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Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Hi form Kentucky I have been trying to learn about coyote hunting because they are getting to be a problem running blood dogs are kind of hard to find around here anymore about all that is left is treeing stock coon dogs but I think I have found a way for them to work for us I have heard that with a slower pace dog barking ever breathe a coyote will tend to run a lop over it area as long as the dog is not pushing it two close and after some time you can get ahead of them and get a shot would that be in line with what you guys have seen the 3 dogs I was looking at was the plot dog bike tic and black and tan and before the guy with running dogs say it I know they are not up with a fox hound or a July hound for speed but they are what we have to work with and I am just trying to figure out if they would be good enough to get one to run a lope until we could get a shot
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby Andyva » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:41 pm

First off, yes, there are tree stock dogs that will do it. There are people that do it with nothing but tree stock dogs. You will find that a lot of them hunt snow. Tree stock dogs that are slow and give a lot of voice can make the coyote trot along in front and not leave the country. The trouble is, dogs like that have a tendency to be cold nosed. So you might turn on a cold track and set around with the safety knocked off when the coyote is long gone, doesn't even know you are running him, and if he was passing through, might in fact, cause your dog to leave the country. Now with snow on the ground, blocks that you can drive and establish a bedded coyote in a block, by tracks that were that night's not leaving the block, you can do OK.

Some of your hotter nosed dogs, can do a little better about only taking fresh tracks. There are big game lines of plotts and walkers that in my opinion, are almost running dogs. Some english, too. Something I have seen, is if you get a big dog with bad shaped feet on a long race, and he has a lot of treeing instinct in him, he is liable to be awfully happy to set down and bark up a tree when his feet start to hurt him.

Most of my eastern coyote running has been with bear dogs that either weren't broke for bears all the way, or were not very good in the first place. The majority of it, until here recently, has been unintentional, and mostly not involving my own dogs. Not many people will get a good bred pup and let it run coyote around here, so most of what I see tried on purpose is a bunch of rag tag misfits. I decided that if I am going to run a coyote, I want the coyote to know I'm running him, so I went the running dog route.

How far they leave the country has a lot to do with time of year. In the fall and early winter, you have some pup dispersal, so you can get some long races, coyotes don't know the country so they aren't going to circle in it. When they have pups, spring and early summer, they can be rough on dogs. About september you might catch a pup by himself and have a nice short race. From what I can see around here the big ones make about two loops and then go. In cattle country like I am, I watch for a dog walking back and forth on the gps and go get my dog at a fence somewhere, so I get some good running without the mad dashes for the county line. When my young gyp figures out those fence crossings better, it might not be as much fun.

If you want to kill coyotes, get you some traps and spend a few years learning how to use them. It will take you longer to learn to effectively kill them with dogs, and it will still be mainly for fun. In two or three years you could rack up some impressive numbers trapping, if you have the knack for it.

There are running dogs in Kentucky, maybe none close to your part of Kentucky. Heck, I don't know why Kentucky hasn't made the Trigg the state dog, that is where they were invented. But you don't have to have them, people do run with tree stock all the time, some of them even on purpose.
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:58 am

Yeah I have been learning trapping but I grew up with hunting dogs so I think there is a part of me that will always love hunting with dogs just wondering what kind of dogs are trigg don't believe I know them are they closed mouth or open mouth dogs are they hot or cold nosed dogs I thought running dogs were about wiped out in the late 70 early 80 when foxes were about hunted out coyote did not start showing up until the mid late 90 but if people are still breeding them around k.y I would definitely like to take a look at them
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby perk » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:54 am

Triggs, same as July and walker are breeds of American fox hounds, and Kentucky is full of American foxhounds, one of the most predominate breeding family's of fox hounds in the past 50 years is in Kentucky the Hill family. The chase magazine which publishes and keeps track of pedigrees and field trial information is located in Lexington. KENTUCKY is running dog country
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:14 am

Ok if it up around Lexington that up to the n.w of us in the blue grass country I am from the south east part of the state in the hill country i was wondering if it would be different for them hunting in the hills then it would be in the flat open country something that I was wondering too was generally what would you all say about how many would a man need to get started not really interested in a big pack to run them to the ground just enough to get one running and to get a shot at one
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby david » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:17 am

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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby Andyva » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:26 pm

Running dogs do just fine in hill country. People have bred them to have good proportions and good feet and legs. They haven't really done it on account of bench shows, they have done it to keep a dog competitive in a three day fox trial. There are a lot of coon dog bred hounds that are too big and posty legged and coon footed to make it much past the eight hundred yards or so necessary to tree a coon.

I live in mountains. I used to think that the deer hunters in the eastern part of the state would love to have some of our deer running "mountain raised" hounds. Turns out the extra lung power from being used to higher elevation doesn't make up for a dog that is stuck in 1st gear because of the way it is put together. Running dogs can gear down where it gets steep.

Some of the foundation stock that went into these dogs (mountain and muse) came from Ireland, where it is quite steep. Some of the tree dog breeds have a lot of bloodhound influence. It is my personal opinion that some of the bloodhound type breeds were selected so that people could keep up with them, on foot.
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:47 pm

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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:30 pm

Ok I did know some of the blood lines came from Ireland that were a lot of my dad's people came from he said he was told a lot of them settled here because it reminded them of home so if the trigg and July hounds are just versions of America fox hounds are there difference between them also do they run them or bay/catch also how many would you think you would need to get started
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby Dan Edwards » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:52 pm

There is a difference in the breeds but not as far as you are concerned really. Beings that you are young and don't have a lot of experience I would steer clear of the super tough bred pen type dogs. I hope I don't offend anybody by sayin that but them sumbitches are double tough and you really gotta wanna deal with that type of dog to own one.
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:10 pm

Ok thanks what do you mean tough bred pen type dogs catch dogs? What would you all say would be a good number of them to get started also are they anything like coon dogs far as being handled and how they act around people
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby david » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:03 pm

Hillbilly Boy, I really respect you for all the research you are doing. I think it is great because a dog is a big investment. I want to level with you a little bit. It's kind of hard to say because I don't want to discourage you. And I don't think anyone on here wants to discourage you. And I think some of them hesitate to tell you things That might be disappointing to you.

I think it is important for you to evaluate why it is you want to run coyotes. The only people I know who catch Coyotes consistently with plot hound's, or tree bred dogs, (drawing from another thread of yours,) are people who hunt coyote in the snow.

Other than snow hunters the only people I know who actually catch coyotes with their dogs putting their mouths on the coyotes and killing them, are the people who also use sight hounds. And they hunt open country.

I hear of people whose dogs catch coyotes and they are running dogs or foxhounds. But in my experience they are special people with special dogs. And the dogs don't stay special When The same pups are raised by someone else. I can't really explain it. But you are wanting to enter a sport that is very difficult. And I know very few people who are successful at it without Either 1) snow, or 2) the help of sight hounds in open country.

It is probably important for you to figure out why you want to catch coyotes. The hides from your area are not worth much. And if you want to kill them for predator control there are more effective and less expensive methods for killing coyotes. If you just want to chase Coyotes to hear the race then I think that's fine. You can use any hound that gives voice.
But if you are hoping to find hounds that will catch and kill coyotes in forest, thick cover and hills, without snow, you are headed for a long hard path that may end in great disappointment. There are probably dogs that can do it. But you could possibly look for them the rest of your life and not find them. This is nothing like trying to find a good coonhound.

So I don't want to disappoint you and cause you to give up on your quest. And I hope you prove me wrong. I am not going to stand back and say I told you so. I am going to stand back and be cheering for you. But some one needs to tell you this could possibly be a very disappointing and expensive path you are wanting to start down.

I think Andyva has a very balanced perspective for all things hunting and trapping. And I think he may hunt similar type country. I hope you will stay connected with him and take everything he says very seriously. He can save you a lot of time, head ache and heart ache.

We really do wish you the best.
Last edited by david on Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby david » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:14 pm

PS. Pen bred dogs do not catch and kill coyotes. If they do, they are banned from the pen. There may be fines. And these dogs probably will be removed from a pen breeding program. And additionally, catching a coyote in a pen may or may not be a good indication of the ability to do it in the wild.
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby hillbilly boy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:45 pm

OK thanks man for being straight up with me it a two part thing I was raised up with hunting dogs and I always thought it was cool to listen to them and coyotes are getting were they are about one of the most common thing around and a lot of people I know have been having problems with them killing live stock and pets and one guy I know had one come at him snapping at him until he could get to his gun don't feel bad or think you are making me give up if trapping game calling or hunting over bait has better chance of getting them then that were I would want to go it not about the money it just helping my friends and family who are not able to do it and to keep them away from the places we hunt other stuff they have about killed small game hunting
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Re: Question from a green Horne

Postby david » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:27 am

I had to edit my post because I meant to say Andyva.

I wish you could find some one in your region who is actually doing exactly what you are wanting to do and then copy him in every way until you have some success on your own. Then you can modify your methods to better fit your own style.
The problem with that is that some of the things you want to try are not being done by anyone that I know of. And that doesn't mean it can't work. It just means no one is doing it.

But it might also mean that no one is doing it because it is so difficult or maybe even impossible to do in your area. So it sure would be great if you could find a mentor who does about what you would like to do or at least part of what you would like to do, and does that with great success in your region or a very similar region. It would save you so much time and money if you could find someone like that and use the same dogs and the same tools and the same methods.

It seems to me that Andyva is the closest thing to that we have on here. I wish he was closer, and I hope you find some one closer.

Find out if you have a Fur Takers of America (FTA) chapter, or National Trappers Assiciation (NTA) chapter and try to go to their gatherings. A lot of those guys are pretty quiet, but you might find a man who quietly does all the things you hope to do. Find out who the government trappers are for your area and try to meet him or them. He will know about the people who are succesful at killing coyotes.

Of the government trappers I have known through the years about half of them would not be without a dog and some of them also used hounds

Also if you can find a man who buys fur and/or ginseng; that man will have more knowledge and connections than he will be willing to give you, but he might point you in the right direction.

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