!!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

[Dan McDonough]

Dan the trait for running by sight is dominant over trailing you will have to go back to a hound cross.

I picked that up from a friend of mine that hunts hounds made from a gh x plott male and a plott x running walker female. Every once in a while, out comes a first cross that runs a track really well, that is what happened with my dog Bandit (stag x july). The July side of his pedigree actually runs a cold track nearly as fast as when it's hot...the best of them can do that anyhow. I go through quite a few dogs every year and I'm only writing about the ones that worked out of course. It makes for a good story but the long version includes a pile of work and picking through dogs that didn't have what it takes. They didn't make it so I figure they aren't worth mentioning.

I haven't made a single sighthound/treehound cross myself. I got Bandit from a friend and he is an accidental cross. He just happened to come out of two very good parents. I had Bandit's sister too but let her go to a friend. She is a hunting machine and I get to hunt with her any time I want.

[Dan McDonough]

?? . leopards plotts and July are related??? Please explain .

I'll take this one as long as I'm on here right now. Mont Plott bred Leopards into his dogs, Richard McDuffy bred Plotts into his Leopards, Rex Bowers bred Julys into his Leopards and these are just a few of the known crossbreedings that have taken place. Of course, those dogs were bred back into their respective breeds to make little changes. There are many, many more instances where walkers, blueticks, and other lesser known but phenomenal family lines of dogs were put into Leoaprds, Plotts and Julys. Julys have had less outcrossing than either the Leopards or the Plotts to my knowledge.

Dogs are nearly never improved by just staying within their gene pool. The value of inbreeding (sticking with a registry) is only to fix traits. If you want to actually give a dog a higher limit of ability or add something you have to go looking for it elsewhere.

[Jimmy Lee]

You make some good points Dan and I am sure by now you realize that line breeding does not mean absolute success.

[david]

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[Jimmy Lee]

Dave no I don't believe running hounds have enough treeing instinct bred into them.but I have seen some that would tree most do not and nontreeing appears to be dominant in hounds.but in non hound breeds the treeing trait appears to be dominant except in most bird dogs.you would probably have the best luck with a trigg as far as treeing.I haven't seen to many running Walker's that would but I know guys crossing running Walker's with treeing Walker's and the off spring tree well.but that is not the rule but the exception on the most par it takes a couple of generations of breeding back to tree dogs

[Jimmy Lee]

There was some great hounds in hound history that where at least a quarter running dog. Johnsons banjo was one!

[Dan McDonough]

Brinkley's Ozark Mtn. Preacher

[Jeff Eberle]

the treeing trait appears to be dominant except in most bird dogs.s

What breed of bird dogs are you referring to ? Over the years I've owned a few GSP's and EP's all of them would tree . Even had a Lab that would tree.

[perk]

I have often wondered where this theory that triggs are the most likely running dog. I have been around fox hounds my whole life, and never ever heard this theory until being on. This website and talking to people out west. I've seen many a running dog that would tree, be it bark up a tree, or bay at a hole once Fox went to ground, even seen ones that bay dead animals (mostly deer dogs) maybe not 100 bpm tree dogs, but enough to locate the final resting spot of the animal. And guys the majority of them are regular old plain running walkers. Maybe not the field trial stock guys use bc that trait hurts them in competition and could eventually lead to elimination. But the guys who run outside foxes have dogs that do it. And the trait shows up in the pups just has to be cultivated. Maybe bc the trigg isn't veiwed as seriously in feld trialing world bc some think they are too slow to compete, they haven't been as bred away from this trait, but it's happening guys, most triggs on the east coast now are pen dogs and you will see less treeing ability in the future bc it's a trait that hurts the results in field trials. JMO but i shake my head every time I see some one selling that trigg is the best treeing running dog line.

[Dan McDonough]

To add to that Perk, the best pack around here are all running walker and two of the five dogs in that pack will tree and one of those two is a pretty decent tree dog. I don't think any of them will hold a tree for an hour or more but I could be wrong. I'll ask and see if that has ever happened with that dog.

[Dan McDonough]

Just talked to the man. He said they will mill around if game is not in view at the tree. Still needs a treehound to get it locked down. Many of the running dog men will say that a dog will tree but it really doesn't matter if it does if it doesn't hold and show the tree. That has to be taken into consideration. It's just a guess as to what the percentage of those claims may fall into that category but I'll bet it is high.

I should amend the above statement. If your just looking to find most of the stuff a dog trees I think a good woodsman can sort the rest out and find the critter. As far as breeding a dog that trees, it matters a lot more. If I tell someone that a dog they buy from me trees, it ought to tree and hold pressure for a long time. That's where my concern lies in relation to this thread. I've got several lurchers that will bark treed but I wouldn't call them tree dogs.

[david]

I should amend the above statement. If your just looking to find most of the stuff a dog trees I think a good woodsman can sort the rest out and find the critter. As far as breeding a dog that trees, it matters a lot more. If I tell someone that a dog they buy from me trees, it ought to tree and hold pressure for a long time. That's where my concern lies in relation to this thread. I've got several lurchers that will bark treed but I wouldn't call them tree dogs.

That is the reason for my questions to Jimmy.

I have owned tree hounds that would stay alone at a tree barking for 12 hours just in a day's work and have stayed twice that long; even when part of that time they could hear a pack of dogs running. I am Wondering if some one some where knows where that came from? It is really hard for me to believe it came from the fox hound. I could be wrong.

the treeing trait appears to be dominant except in most bird dogs.s

What breed of bird dogs are you referring to ? Over the years I've owned a few GSP's and EP's all of them would tree . Even had a Lab that would tree.

Jeff, I am assuming EP stands for English Pointer.

The English Pointer has come up several times in my lifetime as a dog that always trees. One of those times was an old man who told me that is where the tree power in coon hounds came from.

I don't know if it is true.

Something to think about though.

[david]

I am wondering what other breeds always tree?

[Dan McDonough]

Laikas, Elkhounds and the Mtn. Cur, though I wouldn't put them in the same category of tree dog as the ones that will stay for hours. The search continues...but that EP thing is going to stick in my head, I just have never heard that before.

I have that History of the Walker (Treeing) book, I wonder if it's in there.

[perk]

David, I've read somewhere that the English pointer was bred into English fox hounds before. I'm sure over the years tons of crosses have been made in our respective breeds that breeders have lied about, not wanting to admit that's what is in old famous so and so's breeding. Remember that running dogs today aren't the same as turn of the 20th century, they have had specific traits breed in them for years, mainly speed for last 25 yrs, before that all breeders took into account nose mouth homing ability, etc. My granddad gave an old foxhound he had called lady away when she got old for treeing coons. She had been a great tree dog all her life up a tree or in a hole. Been dug out of many holes with the fox dead in her mouth. This guy used lady to train several good reliable coon dogs, and she was all running stock. It's hard for us to decipher bc we have no clue what dogs traits were 60-100 yrs before we were born. Used to be a local 2 day fox field trial here in Va, dogs were eliminated if caught running a deer, and they always gave away a best tree dog award, which was subjective based on how hard they treed etc, they received points for each hole and tree they were baying at, and several guys came every year and u better belief. That award and best mouth carried as much pride as winning the whole dang hunt