BigGameHoundsmen.com

IMO- There is no difference.

There is a difference in guys that run drags and guys that run their pups on the real thing.

You'll see the difference in the pups.

Take care.
Mason

Mike Leonard wrote:All very interesting. I never use drags myself anymore.


Oh by the way I have seen some of our S. W. Nance pups who have been worked on the cat training method properly catch the first dry ground lion track in the wild they encounter so it can't be all bad, but then again I wouldn't say these are average pups.

And another thing to remember is there is no charge for that method but it can save you a ton of fuel money, and time but you have to read the first few pargraphes carefully.

Alone? We're talking about training pups to do it theirselves... not bay or tree when a seasoned pack has done the work for them.

Take care.
Mason

When laying a trail, you are trying to make tracks and mimic a cat. Each step a cat would make and be as realistic as possible. To me a drag is just as the name implies. A wide layer of scent that would seem to be easier to find. The difference to me is that a dog has to work and grub out the trail just like the real thing.

I'll agree there is nothing better than a live critter, but I'm also not going to throw out a four month old pup and expect him to keep up with the big dogs. But I can lay a trail for him and let him build confidence in his trailing. He learns what we're after and gets a general idea of what we're looking for on those long walks. You also have control over the tracks. You can determine how cold or how hot you want the track and in what conditions.

Certainly nothing beats the real thing I agree with that. Sort of like playing scrimmage with your own team mates is not quite the same as the real blood and guts game.

This formitive training works if you do it correctly and have a proper student. Mason if it doesn't work for you don't use it. I know how long you have been training hounds and you know how long I have been doing it so don't tell me you have seen it all or know it all.

I am not trying to be difficult here I try to offer sound advice to hound enthusiasts that will help them in their process and enjoyment. 40 years of hounding has taught be one thing for sure. Use every damn advantage that you can and also you will learn somthing new every time you go to the woods.


If you do not understand the process ask questions or go observe somebody using it successfully. There are a number of professional lion hunters using this method in varying degrees with great success reported. It has no patent on it, change it or re -arrange it it matters not to me. But there are hunters who have observed some of my pups who have been worked with it hit a bare ground lion track and not behind another older hound, and they certainly report they seem to know what to do with it.



I am thru with this one........

I remember watching a Nance strain Walker gyp named Chassie run her first dryground lion track after being "started" by this method. It was a 2 day old track, I know this because I saw the cat make the track. She ran it alone and flat smoked it. Only later did I find out it was her first "real" lion track. That made a believer out of me and I will never do a drag again. Oh, and if I remember right, she was way less than a year old. I think you will find hundreds of guys now who prefer this method for starting young pups.

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest. I certainly have not seen it all, nor do I know it all. I do know what works for me. You said yourself that you don't use the drag method anymore.

Neither do I. When a pup is ready, I take it hunting.

I've seen pups do things that I wouldn't have believed, had I not seen it.

Take care.
Mason

LT- so are you for artificial training or not? I'm confused by your post. Please clarify what you mean by "this method". Thanks.
Coyote- I think that no matter how you use the scenting material it is still considered a drag. I think no matter how one lays a track, it still does not simulate a real cat other than it being found by the dog from smell.
Challenging a pup on scent is the only difference to me that can make a pup better at it, if possible. Putting one drop on the scent pad as appossed to ten or waiting 4,5,6 hours after the drag is laid may accomplish this.
If a person can put their young dogs on thirty or so real tracks of the game animal they wish to run by the time they are a year old then drags are probably not necessary or if you have dogs that were born well started hounds,the same, but my experience says that training hounds is just that, TRAINING, and like a bird dog or cow dog or police dog, whether they are needing it or not they get educated by me and that means as much simulated, controlled situations as possible as long as it doesn't confuse them or cause them to do things contrary to what your goal for them is(and drags can do this if not done right). More dogs get shot from poor training and ignorance than anything else. Some of the best dogs I've ever seen didn't start catching their own game until 2 years old.

I am not against scent drags. I think they serve a minor (very minor) purpose. If you believe that you are helping your pup by using them then more power to you. I would caution you to be sure that you are not HURTING him.

My belief is that most every thing a young dog does is "what comes naturally". He will trail and tree for the same reasons that he nurses immediately after birth. Teach your pup to handle, give him good opportunities to hunt with good dogs , break him from trash and his genetic programming will do the rest. You will not have to "show" him what you want him to run. You will likely have to show him what not to run.

briarpatch

I mean Mike L.'s track method. Personally I only do it with young pups, 3-5 months. I only put a very small amount on the end of the roller. I always start at the tree and go away from there. That makes the scent warmer nearer the tree. In short time they can run a overnight trail, then I work them up to a 1 day old trail. You can lay very long trails, a mile or more, and if done in the right location, you can watch the whole thing. Not to be over done of course, but it gives them a head start in a controlled environment. In my opinion only.

briarpatch wrote:You will not have to "show" him what you want him to run. You will likely have to show him what not to run.

Also, if all a pup has ever run is cat scent from the very beginning at a very young age, then trash races are Almost non existant.

As a side note, I have just let pups run loose and at 6 months, show them a lion track and have them tree it alone by themselves. I like to watch dogs work and young pups opening and trailing while I sit up high somewhere and watch is just too much fun.

In my opinion,drags at a young age can build confidence in a dog and teach him that he can do it all by himself by using his nose,brains and everything else required to work that track to a successful conclusion.

liontracker wrote:Also, if all a pup has ever run is cat scent from the very beginning at a very young age, then trash races are Almost non existant.

As a side note, I have just let pups run loose and at 6 months, show them a lion track and have them tree it alone by themselves. I like to watch dogs work and young pups opening and trailing while I sit up high somewhere and watch is just too much fun.

A trail hound is a trail hound whose purpose in life is to follow scent. And fresh deer or elk is alot easier to run than cold lion or bear, and any pup will take the fresher scent given the chance without correction. Even if a young dog learns with lock-down, go get'em caught lion or bear hounds the day will come when that pup leaves the pack for fresh deer or elk, and it doesn't matter where that pup came from or who trained it. Training and hunting a hound is a trust/show me relationship between that hound and the man hunting it, and without the verification any hound will turn to a renegade before your eyes.........

ike

Yes sir, and when that little bugger is trailing a laid trail through a herd of deer and the long arm of Mr. Trashbreaker lights him up it makes a long lasting impression. They are alot less hard headed at that age. Sure beats freecasting young pups through god knows what all trash at an early age. Controlled environment and quality repetition. Can you find a runnable lion track for a 3-5 month old pup every day?

I actually like the training method for young dogs. With the laws of today it is a real good way to start a young dog. I am against taking a 3-4 month old pup and turning out on big game though, but thats just my opinion. I think whatever works best for the person is what they should go with. I definately don't think it hurts a young pup to run a scent drag. It gives the pup a chance to use its nose as well as find a tree at the end of the trail under a very controlled environment. It also does what several others have said and that is build confidence.
Also I don't believe that every hound is a renegade waiting to be unleashed. There are strains of hounds that take very little IF ANY corrective training on off game. I own one right now that is 5 yrs old and has never to my knowledge run off game, and has definately had lots of opportunities on very bad tracks, and is actually my lead dog. I know that sure as shootin when a person says something like this he/she is asking for trouble the next time out
Like I said everyone likes a little different type of dog....has a little different style of hunting....and just needs to use the methods and types of hounds that work for them. Most probably wouldn't even feed my culls

I think that just about everyone in this post agrees that scent trails serve at least some purpose. EVERY type of working dog is trained using artificial circumstances before the real thing (police, cattle, sled, S&R, and all other working dogs). I have a hard time thinking that our hounds, are the only type of working dog that will not benefit from controled training in the beginning. I surely think a guy can overdo it and I also believe we should make the trails as difficult as the dog can or perhaps sometimes can't finish. Also, I beleive that in laying trails for the dogs you can really be a more active participant in the initial training. All that said, once they have a decent handle on trailing and they recognize the correct scent then obviously get them on game.

Crap, I just read Cobalts above post and I think it said the same thing...But, it takes so long to type with 1 finger that I'll leave it up