Let the Females go to run again!

[007pennpal]

So... if you kill the females then the young ones die. And if you kill the adult male then the new king kills the young ones. Sounds like the only way to kill only one is to shoot a sub adult.
Sean

[Mike Leonard]

Thanks Shadowhunter for clearing me up on that.

Harvest mature toms you won't know unless you really have spent a lot of time in that area if it is the territorial tom or not but remember although it may upset some balance it is a far better route to go. One mature healthy breeder tom can take care of a lot of country and a lot of female lions. And lion mothers are very good at avoiding other lions when their kittens are most vulnerable. Kitten mortality can come in many forms and one of the largest contributors is kittens being killed by their siblings. When they reach a certain age many times the smallest weakest kitten is turned on by the others and eliminated. It is not a pretty thought but again it is natures way of ensuring the strongest to survive.

[BEAR HUNTER]

This is a good conversation. It applies to management of all animals. Serious question for you Mike and some of you others who have been at it a long time. I am truely curious to your thoughts on this and am not arguing with any of you. MY question is To properly manage an animal population, dont you have to do more than take mature "trophy" animals. The way I understand it the guys in Europe have it down pretty good. They not only take the mature animals but they take the "culls" also for the benifit of their deer herd. Now I understand the enviroment is WAY more controlled then our lions but I would think that the basic plan still would require more than just a mature tom being killed. In California back in I believe the 50's Fish and Game held a Doe hunt for deer. They did a study and found that the next couple of years the fawn rate doubled and the fawn survival rate increased. I have noticed in coon hunting that once you kill enough coon the population seems to get healthier. Just curious as to your guys thoughts on this.

[jason]

I wish the Montana hound crowd would leave some females in the tree. I see that even our "trophy" draw only permit areas are piling up the females. Better put her up between your nice big doe and cow elk mount.

[Mike Leonard]

The practice of managment harvest is a most useful tool, however in the practice of cougar hunting it is most difficult to execute. To set and watch a sub prime animal in a herd situation from a blind or on a game camera is one thing. Trying to duplicate on a cryptic creature like a lion is very difficult so the next best measure is by harvest quota, and true enforcement.

The best thing you can do is have enough fortitude to not pull the trigger on a female or a cat you suspect is a female becasue you know when it hits the ground that is what it is going to be, and then telling your buddies to do the same.


Hounds guys are a different animal just like the critters they hunt, and the real ones usually get it figured out and the rest are just in it for the brag and the short go, so leave them in the beer joint shooting pool and talking about the last 1000 yard shot they made on that trophy bull. LOL!

[BEAR HUNTER]

Mike I figured that was the logical answer. Its hard if not impossible to manage a species when there are so many out there who are able and willing to pull the trigger. Here in Ca we are killing more lions now then when we had a hunting season. The big cats have decimated our deer herds. I was suprised though recently to find out that our black bear numbers are so high now that they are the number one reason for fawn predation. Even though we have a bear season its not enough to keep them in check. Thats one thing for Ca. We have plenty of national forest for animals, and plenty of animal rights wackos to keep the hunters out of the woods.

[Bplott]

Its just my feeling and the way I was taught that females were to be let go and harvest nice mature toms only....if you leave the females the popularion in an area will balance due to dispersement of the young animals ...when you have females you will have something to train dogs on and a reassurance you will have more lion to run in the future.

[007pennpal]

I know every animal is different, but kill bucks only didn't work with deer. It seemed right and we went with it for years. Killing all the bucks drastically declined the natural competition among males and weakened the herd. Lions are real difficult to study. A natural ratio might be better. At least we are concentrating on this and trying to do what is right. I'm for letting the females go with the exception of areas with predation problems. Lion studies may improve our knowledge for future management. One thing is for sure. We never stop learning.
Sean

[liontracker]

I would think that it all depends on how dense or sparse of a lion population you are managing for. If the population is at the desired level, then it only makes sense, that some females have to be harvested in order to maintain and not increase the current population. I know that conventional thought is that the excess females will disperse. However, that is not always the case. It seems that if the regional development in the form of subdivisions ect. has ate up most of the prime habitat, then they start stacking up like cordwood... if the prey species can maintain a population that will feed them. The females seem to tolerate and adapt to intense lion population densities somehow. I would also think that at some point of dense saturation, the lion population would implode and they would start killing each other and the kittens off. I saw where one tom was actively trying to scent trail a kitten, to kill it, I would assume.

What makes me think this way, is the ranch I just got off of. It is 25 sq. mi. total. There are 4 females with 5 kittens and 3 toms that are residents there. That is one lion per 3 1/2 sq. mi. Modern biology says that on an average, a female's home range is 60 sq. mi. and a tom's is 100 sq. mi. I also think that when it comes to lion biology, managers only know about 1/2 of the the total picture. Almost all of the current info has been gathered the easy way, catch and collar with monitoring via GPS, track counts at road crossings, scat counts and even arial surveys. Very little info has been gathered by actually getting on the ground and searching every nook and cranny and following real lion tracks, day in and day out, in order to learn first hand of their COMPLETE lifestyle. I would also think that lions are the hardest mammal in N.A. to study and understand.

When I first started hunting this property, I thought that I had found the Holy Grail of lion hunting. As I went along, I saw the effects of that dense of a lion population. After a recent snowfall, I covered every inch of that place on a sled and counted 65 deer, 1 bull elk, 2 bobcats, 2 coyotes, 1 skunk and a handfull of rabbits. That is just a pittance compared to what it should be. It is great to have female and kitten trash races instead of elk and deer. But the prey species have suffered because of the intense lion population.

So my thought, is that it all depends on the density or sparseness of a lion population that you are managing for.

Does anyone need a few females shipped there way?LOL It would actually be an excellent place to catch and relocate some lions for a stocking program.

[1hogwild]

it is Greg Anderson bred His dad is a dog named jug who is A Bloody Bill Curly cross owned by Trevor Nelson and mother is a Dirty Deeds, Dirty Slew (Loansome) cross her name is Shutta I am in the process of making this cross again that dog is just under a year in that pic was makin bear races at 9 months old trailing and treeing and fightin bears at 10 months should be one hell of a dog after this winter....... Had to make the cross again amazing results, if anyone interested in a puppy let me know im plannin on keeping 2-3 of em for myself

Wouldn't mind getting my hands on won of those pups. Female perhaps.