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Alright I got to know how you guys know these younger dogs that dont start till a year or later are smart and what you are looking for? I dont have a clue and I would be one of the guys that gets rid of a really good dog for not doing what I think he should be doing. I dont have much experience in traing but have been enjoying more of it in the last three years. I do know now that i can look back at dogs that i have worked with and tried to train where I have done more damage then good. There is alot of good info a guy can learn from you guys. I used to use drags quite a bit but now I think I can see where they can cause more damage then good, I also jumped every cat I could out to my dogs. I really want a lock down tree dog and its sounds like I have been training them not to be. But lets here about these smart dogs or what you look for I just have never been able to leave a dog chain up I always just get rid of them and move onto the next.

wRingo, there is a tremendous amount to your post that I can not possibly cover, so I hope others will. I just wanted to throw down a couple thoughts because I dont know when I can get on here again. It might be awhile.

I have noticed that the men who started out with bear hunting, for example, have a certain stereo-type dog that they gravitate toward. I gravitate toward the traits of my first real good bobcat dog. They dont always even apply to the location I now live in. It is a kind of blindness really. For example, I like a smaller dog that can just about go through any opening a bobcat could, and just as fast. It makes no sense in deep snow country that does not have those brush tunnels. But I still love the small super athletic dog that can run circles around a bigger dog. The bigger dog would leave mine a mile back in deep snow. It is my own blindness. I even know it, and can not change it.

But the guys that cut their eye teeth on bear usually seem to gravitate towards the puppies that remind them of their favorite first good bear dogs. What I have noticed atching some very close freinds who fit this kind of person is this: They tend to cull the pups and young dogs that I would keep. And I tend to cull the pups and young dogs that they would keep. And they tend to buy their best bobcat catching dogs from me They cant figure out how come I always end up with the best catch dogs.
I know that sounds arrogant, and it probably is. But it really is true and I dont know how to say it without sounding arrogant. My point is though that I think we all tend to gravitate toward a certain type of dog that appeared and gave us many good hunts and recognition from other hunters very early in our development as hound lovers.
It just so happens that the dog type I had that experience with was not a typical combination type dog. She was a non-typical hound that I will call a bobcat dog.

When I mention intellegence, as it relates to bobcat hunting, I am usually refering to the ability to solve problems. There are many problems you can watch a puppy try and solve. You can set them up. I like to give my pups a new problem at least once a week and even every day if I can. They can be simple things like climbing up stairs, or finding you when you are hiding, or finding you when you actually leave the ground by a few feet climbing up a ladder a little bit. When I have a kennel, I will stretch woven or welded wire across with only one possible solution to get through it. The food will be on the opposite side from the sleeping quarters. If they dont get through, they dont eat. Then after a few days, I make their habitual opening impossible for them, but i lower the top. They have to climb over if they want to eat.

I mean, just be creative. There are a hundred problems that you can come up with for a puppy to solve. If you have the whole litter, there will be certain ones that will distinguish themselves.

My favorite all time kennel was made of discarded playground timbers. I made an 8 inch rail all along the top. Each post had holes and I could insert pipes so I could climb the pole easily. I could easily change which pole I could climb. I could walk completely around the kennel on top of those 6 foot posts on the rail at that elevated position. I learned amazing things about the puppies I had at that time. I could know and predict which ones would make early locators, and I was 100% correct.

Problem solving! You can watch it in your pups. And you can watch it in yourself as you come up with creative problems for your pups to solve.

By the way, I have been criticized for this craziness by those same guys that buy their bobcat catch dogs from me.

Here is a graphic example of puppy problem solving that gave me early impressions on a dogs intellegence: I had a brother and sister littermates. The male was larger and faster. They loved to chase each other but the little female could not catch up to the bigger male. I watched him take a loop around a small brush pile. She was hot on his trail until he started the second time around. She stopped and backed into the brush pile. She waited for him and had the perfect ambush. Are you going to try and tell me dogs do not have the ability to reason? Wow. Do you think that kind of reasoning might work in certain bobcat hunting situations?

Problem solving. It is what I love in a dog. It makes me smile, and it is why I love bobcat hunting with dogs.

Ringo,

I look for the little things that would lead me to believe a pup uses its brains. I want my pups totally aware of their surroundings. I want them to always be using their eyes, ears, and noses. I want a pup that I cant sneak up on in the kennel. I look for a pup that is always keened in on even the little things that goes on around my boring kennel. I look for a pup that is totally alert when even a bird lands on the fencing around the kennel. I look for them to never be caught off guard. Their is nothing I like more than to sit out in a chair in my kennel area and watch a litter of pups closely. When I have a litter of pups I spend a lot of time just watching their actions and how they act towards their litter mates and to everything that goes on around them.

My Grandpa used to use this method on a pup or young dog to see if he thought they used their brains. When he would feed a pup or young dog he would watch them eat their food. When the dog got close to an empty food bowl he would watch to see if they would use their foot to pin down the bowl to keep it from sliding all over and chasing their food dish. If they would use their foot to pin down their food dish he would say well at least they have enough sense to stop their food bowl from sliding all around the kennel and chase it around like an idiot. This may sound strange but try it one day and you will be surprised just how many hounds will just keep licking and moving their food bowls and chase it all over the kennel. He would say the ones that stepped on their food dish to stop it was using their brains enough to realize not to chase the empty bowl all around.

Just spending a lot of time with a pup will teach you alot about how they react to stress full situations. Their is nothing better than having a pup spend a lot of time with you in camp. Raising pups and training dogs is what I like the most about hunting with hounds. After they are up and going good i'm ready start all over. There is nothing better than taking a pup and turning it into a cat hound. I guess the only thing better would be to know you were responsible for the cross that made them.

I can normally tell within a few months of being around a pup or young dog if I want to put much time into them. It dont necessarily mean I dont think they wont make dogs just not the dogs i'm striving for.

The one thing all of us seem to agree on is that it takes a smart dog to tree a cat. The one thing none of you have convinced me of though is how a dog that takes 2 years to figure out how to pull to the other dogs when they get a loose out. Find the loose ahead of the other dogs . Check the track when they hit the road and find it where it doubled back ahead of its mother.Locate and tree ahead of the old dogs .Take a track down a road and find where it left.Figure out a tangeled mess of blow down that a cat has been all over in.etc. etc. is some how smarter than a dog that figures some or all of these things out at 6 months to a year and makes and contibutes to every race. The top cat dogs that I have seen in my lifetime were all doing alot of these things at an early age.I wont say I havent seen dogs come on late made cat dogs.I agree we all base what we believe on the experiences we have had in our lives. Take care Larry

Something I forgot to add and thought it was important to mention is when picking a pup always do your best to find a pup that you can go back a minimum of 3 generations on that line and know they were used on and excelled on the species you are planning on hunting.

There is some exceptions and flukes but its best to know what your foundation is built with.

David made a good point go back to see what the dog is out of. I always look back to see what the parents and grandparents are if possible. Larry I have seen pups start at five months and pick up looses and contribute to a race at a early age. The pups that are giving a lot of mouth at this age and sound good I question what is actually going on. Most young dogs that I hunt are having to go so hard to be in the race that they can't be picking up many looses. I hunt them with my 5 and 6 year old dogs because they are getting throw out also. One has to look at whats going on out there if a dog under a year is picking up looses and leading your cat dogs what does that mean? You either have a outstanding young dog or your main dogs are lacking. I expect my young dogs to go on a race early but not to open and not to tree when they get to the tree. If a pup comes in behind and trees it is not what I am looking for. It is not treeing because it has located it is treeing because it is a me to dog. If it is barking on a track at a early age it is because it is a me to dog. Pull the old dogs out of there and see what happens. Just the way I see it. Dewey

David that didnt come off arrogant , I understand what your saying. I have never watched to see what pup was the smartest just which one was full of energy and out going. I am a rookie at this bobcat hunting but I am hoping that will change. Thanks again for all the info.

I agree a dog shoudnt be just following along and barking. Most cat races are only 20 or 30 min long. An athletic dog with some brains and some go shouldnt be getting thrown out of these kind of races.Even if it is only six months old.At a year it shouldnt be getting thrown out of very many of the rougher races.It is physicaly more cabable than a 6 year old dog.If it has the brains to go with its body it should be there helping out .There are guys around here catching as many cat as any body with dogs that are one, two, three years old.These dogs didnt flip a magic swith at 2 years old and turn into cat dogs.They were hunted hard at a young age and contributing.I know some blodelines of dogs start at a later age.If I had a choice between a smart, athletic, contributing 6 month to a year old dog and one that didnt contribute much till two I know wich one I would choose. I am not talking most young dogs. You are right most young dogs are not contributing at that age.I am talking the best i have seen.Just my observations,Larry

Dewey, there sure are young dogs who bark on track, because they are running older dogs. But, I have owned young dgs that barked because they were smelling the track. Those are the young dogs I really like. David I also favor small dogs, but the size does not also add up too a faster dog. Have seen some larger dogs that put it on my smaller dog. It comes down to nose, brains, desire & the correct track style. Now this just my experience & honest opinion. And only meant to offer another point of view. Some tree bred dogs possess these traits & when they have these they are my type hound. A young hunter starting out can catch game a lot faster with that style dog. If one owns an established pack and can afford to wait for your style dog to be a balanced hound. Will not dispute they may have a very fine hound. Have experienced that myself. Good sharing beliefs. Thanks Al Baldwin

Dang it Dewey, You got me thanking about this post and I went outside and got to mowing. Forgot all about the jerky I had been babying since 7 am this morning.Overcooked the whole batch. Al I agree small size doesnt always mean the fastest dog.Fastest dog we ever had was a 60lb red female. Long eared, long legged dog with big front legs.Her muscles rippled when she walked.No Idea where she came from. Buddy Smith got her from somebody in Newport that had her as a pet. Take care ,Larry

I have never had a small dog that could outrun a long legged dog in a foot race down the road. Fast was probably the wrong word. Quick might be a better word. The small dog will fall behind in open country too when the track is lined out. But in heavy brush, I sure like em. I have seen some bigger dogs do well in heavy brush too, real heavy brush. I actually can not even see how they could do it. But they did, and did amazing at it. I am just admitting to a blind preference that does not make sense alot of times. It is just what I like when it works. I can feed more of em, pet more of em, and fit more of em in my dog box and still catch a cat when I can find a short legged bobcat with parvo. What I like best about em is they are cuter. I can pick up chicks easier with em walking a matched pair of them on the beach. That is pretty much my criteria for if I will work a dog or not. When things get so bad that my blindness for small dogs starts costing me cats, the blinders start coming off reluctantly.

I got a qquestion to help me out with another possible blind spot. Early on, I developed desire for an intelegence related trait that has already been proven wrong sometimes in my own life, so I am just wondering what you all think about it.

I came to the beleif that the smartest dogs were quiet and calm. I experienced a few in a row like this and started to beleive I had to see it if I wanted to keep the dog. I don't beleive it goes across the board but I sure like it when I see it cause it is just like old so and so and also like little so and so and also like that brindle so and so. They all never barked on the chain or in the kennel. They always just watched everything. Always quiet. Always calm.

What is your experience. Has anyone ever observed this behavior in a dog that turned out to be a top bobcat dog?

What CRA was saying reminded me of it, so I wanted to ask before I forget

David and the rest of you...thanks for the replies, you've given me a lot to think about. David, I'll quit talking in hypotheticals now, I have a young female (11 months old) that I bred that's been trailing and treeing anything she could on her own without help since she was 4 months old. I was given a registered pup almost the identical age, but from a line that I have NO experience with. This pup has shown no game drive to this point and just seems to be lost when this little female starts a track (and opens with out barking after the big dogs), by the way, she's the smallest pup out of the litter and smart as a whip : ). He's finally started to go on the races, just not contributing or acting like he gives a crap about what's happening. He acts like he wants to trail deer, birds, butterflies, etc... just not cats. I don't think he'd give tinker's damn if I left him home, but maybe I'll try it. I haven't messed with any caged game or drags with him at all...don't really mess with that stuff anymore, but he might be the exception? just to see if there's anything in there? What do you think? Trouble is, I may have a litter out of this little female coming in about a month and a half and if they're anything like her, this other pup is gonna have to find a new home with someone who doesn't mind waiting for him to come on at two ; ).

Newby, it is hard to tell exactly what I would do in your situation because I can not observe the dogs first hand and know all the circumstances first hand. But I will tell you there have been, well, I wont tell you how many there have been because it is too embarrassing. But there have been a number of dogs that I decided rather quickly that I would not work with. There might have even been a cute small one or two. I will also tell you that I have never been completely happy with a dog that I did not raise from a puppy. And I will also tell you that even from a distance I have noticed that you are an intelligent person. I think you will know exactly what needs to be done when the time comes. It is OK for you to trust your own intuition on something like that. You will have to be doing that more and more. It is OK to be wrong about a dog, I am pretty sure we all have been. It is not always the dogs fault but just unfortunate circumstances in our lives or the lives of the ones that had him before us. It is too bad, but we cant be frozen in the fear of doing the wrong thing. As the saying goes "do something even if it is wrong" A ship that is not moving can not be guided by swinging the rudder. Keep moving, and you will get to the goal even if the line getting there is not perfectly streight.

That's good advice and I do have a tendency to sit on a decision a little too long cause I don't want to make a wrong one. I also have a tendency to let just a glimmer of hope or slight improvement keep me from pulling the trigger as it were. Thanks for taking the time to post on here and invest in the younger generation of hound doggers. Ringo, keep that early starter in the woods maybe if we get enough of em started we can sell em to bear hunters and buy some real cat dogs : ).

This post has got me thinking along with you Larry. I know you are a good cat hunter with good dogs. There is no absolutes in the dog world never and every should not come in as you know. My old Pepper which has been the one to train this generation of dogs is 75 pounds, I hate large dogs but she has been one of the top dogs I have owned that goes back to Pee Wee on most sides. The best cross I feel I have ever made with dogs I cull both females from this litter this year. Each pup has to be look at as a individual to see what it offers you never know until it is done. Most of my young dogs go at a early age but I don't push them hard because I feel a lot can happen early that can set them back. Most of my dog do contribute by 18 months and have treed game by themselves. Tanner that I am breeding to now treed his first cat ahead of everybody at 1 year old and many by the time he was 2. It bothers me when I hear people say that by 6 months I know which dogs to keep or that by a year they should be treeing or I cull. I have raised more than most I can't see how that can be done. You my have a idea and know on some but a lot of good dogs get culled for the wrong reasons. A lot I say on here is to make people think a trait I feel that does not come easy to a lot of hound men. Thanks for thinking. David you think the way I do the quite pups that set back and think is the one I want. It takes a easy going dog to make a cat dog not one that charges all over looking like they are looking for a cat. Always question what you hear or see that is what the brain is for. Once you know it all you are going backwards. It's been a good post Dewey