Early starting hounds

[twist]

How many guys have had early starting hounds go on to make top hounds or just never progress past that stage? Tell me your theories on this. Also tell me which you would rather have. Andy

[al baldwin]

Andy I like early starting hounds, never owned a perfect hound, but have found dogs that start young have done well for me. Most of the best I/ve trained show natural ability & desire very early. With short bobcat seasons, limited # of cats in my small hunting area, a hound that showed a natural ability to run & tree it/s own game at six mouths old would sure make me happy. Have found easier to take some tree out of hounds than to put tree in one. There is a fine line between to much & not enough tree in bobcat hounds, but, try catching bobcat with a hound that won/t tree. It is not much fun. Have seen a few late starters that finished to nice hounds. Do not believe in ending a dog/s life, hounds make excellent pets, especially ones than have no desire to hunt. And in this county there is a low cost clinic to controll unwanted pups. But I have always hunted with hounds because I enjoyed doing so, If I was hunting to make my living, may see things different. Just my opinion. Thanks Al Baldwin

[twist]

Al, I am with you on this one also. Seems all the early starters just get better and better with exposure. I sure thought this would be a good discussion topic as have just about everyone that calls inquiring about pups want to know if they are early starters. Andy

[LarryBeggs]

Al I agree with everything you said. All the better dogs we have had started young. I have seen dogs that didnt progress and maybe took a step or two back .But I think this was probably caused buy mistakes we made or something that happened to them while hunting like dogs growling under a tree, etc. . Take care Larry

[cobalt]

I agree with al baldwin 100%, but that is also the type of dog I have and have hunted for years. I think there are really nice strains of dog that are slower starters (genetically) and end up being as good as any early starters. I usually won't get rid of a dog until I stop liking what I'm dealing with whether they start early or not, like skiddish dogs or ones that don't show a propensity to tree in some way by the time they're 1 yr. old, or dogs that drift off a tree, or mean dogs. Liking what I have in my kennel as far as young dogs go, is more important to me than the statistical rate of improvement, but on the other hand, by the time they're 3, they better be able to fit into a pretty strict criteria of skill in catching game on their own and with the pack.

[CRA]

Andy,

This question sent me down memory lane. I was thinking back to a lot of pups I started and the ones that's shown signs of early starting dogs normally were always the ones that ended up being the ones that made the cut.

I have seen some that was showing signs early of making dogs then suddenly they just seem to get stuck in a place that they never seemed to advance out of. I dont know what would cause that but I believe it may have been from hunting them too young or fooling with them a little too much at too young of an age.

I sure like my pups to show me some kind of promise early on to make me want to keep them around. It sure makes it a lot easier to deal with all the little things that pups love to do to drive me crazy.

The crosses I like are the ones that seem to just need exposure and their natural bred instincts take over and they require very little work other than hunting with some minor corrections. Its amazing when you get a pup out of a cross like that, a cross that just seems to click. It can sure spoil you from fooling with those pups that really require a lot of training just to make a average hound.

[Tim Pittman]

Al,CRA,you hit some very good points.CRA,I almost made the duplicate post in another thread,I didn't word it or explain it near as well[got a little confusion over it]I to believe there are naturals who just need nuturing not so much training,like Andy said exposure.

[newby]

It seems to be the consensus that we all want dogs that are just naturals...it just makes it more fun when you have a 10 week old pup that bays the crap out of a coon the first time he sees one or a 4 month old that starts her own trash tracks then trying to coax an 8 month old to go with the pack on a jumpout race. I always say I'd rather have to reign them back in and redirect then try and coax them to go. But I also want to have a dog that is steadily progressing, learning something new everytime we go to the woods, showing me improvement in one area or another. How many of you have had early starting dogs that just kind of stall out? I've personally never seen it, but have heard others talk about it...tell me your theories on this.

[david]

Newbee, I have had extremely early starting dogs that to me stalled out. But where they stalled out was still better than most dogs ever got. But I dont like the stalling out at any stage, just like you said. They were top combination dogs, but in my opinion never made top bobcat dogs. They caught a lot of bobcats for a lot of people, but still would not be where I would go looking for a top bobcat dog. I have seem some top bobcat dogs that started late, and they made much better bobcat dogs than the above mentioned dogs. At some point, they passed them up and just kept going. That is where I would be more likely to try and find myself a top bobcat dog. But I hate the waiting. I think we all should breed for early starting. It saves time and it saves money; a lot of time and a lot of money. Because for all the waiting, you still might wind up with nothing. And you might have already caught a lot of game and had a lot of fun with the early starter by that time; or sold it for a real good price to a bear or coon hunter if it was not exactly what you wanted for bobcat.

I think what some have realized, including me, is that the automatic dog does everything by genetic pull, where as the less automatic dog does more learning and progressing toward the goal. The automatic dog can reach the limit of the genetic pull. If he does not have the brains to pull him past that point, he stalls out. with cat dogs the problem is that the genetic pull has usually been developed by breeders who hunted fox or racoon or bear. The genetic pull is not necesarilly faithful to the quarry if it is something other than those; such as bobcat. Then, they have to have enough brain power to overcome the genetic pull and do what works for bobcat instead of what works for the racoons or bear or fox they were genetically designed for.

So we are back to the one trait I have never heard argued by any bobcat hunter:
Brains, and the ability to solve problems. It wont matter if they start automatic and early if they have the brains to carry them past all that. And if they start late and not so automatic, but have desire, their brains will carry them to the goal.

I guess I get worried at the automatic early starter just because I have seen that combined with a lack of intellegence in my experience. for me it is even to the point that I noticeably avoid the early automatic dog. But again, I think early starting, intelligent dogs should be every breeders goal.

[newby]

David, great post...that makes a lot of sense. I guess the question for me is if I have an early starting pup and a dog the same age that isn't showing me anything that I like, what makes you keep taking that slow-starter to the woods? If I'm comparing two different dogs to see which one I'm gonna keep and I have limited kennel space, are there circumstances that would make you keep the pup that's not doing anything over the pup that's rarin to go?

[david]

you come up with the best questions sometimes. If you have limited space and dog food, of course, you are going to have to go with the early starter. You know you have something at least and it is marketable if not exactly what you want.

for me, a lot of it is just doing my research and studying the lines of dogs that I am buying into. My first good bobcat dog, and still probably my most loved, came from a line that started late. I knew that the day I bought her as a puppy. Earl Davis told me when she turned two years old I would magically start catching bobcats. He was exactly right. If I had not known that, I could not possibly have waited so long. She showed me zero until she was ready. And I mean Zero; absolutely nothing in the hunting department. I just could not have waited. All my dogs to that point had started extremely early.

We can save ourselves a lot of heart ache just by doing the research on the family of dogs we are buying into. Dont just find out about the sire and dam, but all the littermates and half brothers and sisters of the sire and dam, and all the grampas and grammas. Talk to the acutual people that owned and hunted these dogs. Watch CSI or Cold Case a couple times on TV, and then go do exactly the same thing with these dogs. You might not have kennel space to sit on a dog doing Zero, but many of those guys did, and they had the time to wait and see because they kept busy with other dogs. they will give you a lot to base your decisions on.

I will tell you one thing though; (back to the same trait), I can tell if a dog is intelligent long before it reaches hunting age. If it is not, I will not keep it.

[david]

what makes you keep taking that slow-starter to the woods?

I realize now I did not answer this part of your question very well.

I don't keep taking them to the woods. Or If they go at all, they stay in the dog box and listen and see what limited things they can see from inside the box. But when I get frustrated with a dog, yet know there is something in there, I leave the dog at home. I hang him up in the closet and come back in a few months. There a two dogs that immediately come to mind that I did this with. Many people who come on here know the dogs because they became exceptional dogs. They both, at different times, got to frustrating me so bad, that I left them home for three months or more. When I took them off the hanger, I could not even remember why I was so frustrated and they never again gave me reason to remember.

I dont know if you married a smart girl, but if you did, you know exactly how I felt when I walked away from those dogs for awhile. If you ever get to feeling like you have been played like a dog toy, then you know you probably have a dog that is smart enough to be a bobcat dog.

[dwalton]

This post has brought up some good questions and answers. David you always have a good way of putting things. I have not posted on this post because I have not know how to say what I feel, you helped with that. Everyone wants a early starting pup and I read on here that if it is not treeing by a year it should be culled. I can think of only one dog that I have owned over the years that would of not been culled. I have never keep a dog that started treeing before a year old for a bobcat dog, they have not made the cut. I only hunt bobcats so this does not pertain to bear, lion and coon dogs or combination dogs. The best bobcat dog that I have ever owned did not start until she was a year old, she would not even go on tracks with the other dogs. It takes a smart dog to make a bobcat dog and I feel most of those do not do anything until they understand what they are doing. I think most people and breeders cull there best pups for all the wrong reason. They want then to start early, to bark at a cage coon, tree early, and bark right off the beginning when started as pups. These things all could be a reason for me to cull a pup. I look at things different than others. I want a dog or pack to be a top cat dog catching 50 to a 100 cats a year. I think that things I hear on here what a dog should be it will not make a top cat dog in my book. It does not mean that you can not go out and catch 15 to 25 cats a year and bears, lions and coons. It means that if you want to catch 50 to 70 bobcats in a three month season you had better have a top cat dog and only running bobcats, there is not enough time to do anything else. I have been criticized on here and by PM for my thoughts and style of dogs,but never by anybody that has hunted with me and my dogs. It is up to us as hunters to get the type of dog we want and the most out of them. That is why there are different breeds. Dewey

[festus]

David,
Very good post's, I allways pay attention to and enjoy reading your posts as they are allways full of knowledge and experience from a true houndsmen.

[david]

David,
knowledge and experience from a true houndsmen.

Thank you Dewey and festus for the kind words. festus, it is kind of weird, but I have to decline the honor of the title "houndsmen". If you offered me the nobel peace prize I would have to decline that as well, because I dont deserve it, and there is certainly someone it has not been given to that does deserve it. I dont have dogs any more, and even when I did, I was just a guy that loved to hunt bobcats. I am unable to live up to the title of a true houndsmen, and there is certainly someone it has not been given to that does deserve it.

But it sure is an honor to be able to be recognized by you and by other folks that love bobcat hunting and it sure is an honor to be allowed to post on a great thread like what Twist has going here. It is a blast to read and grow from the experiences of the great men posting here.

It is sure comforting to know that every mistake I have made has usually been made before, and every remarkable problem my dogs have had has been shared by some of the best bobcat dogs in the world. It is good to see how much folks can disagree on a topic such as this, and still have a lot of fun with their dogs and still catch a lot of cats. It is good to know there is a little room to wiggle and develop our own styles to meet our own needs and purposes for hunting bobcats.