Riggin Lion

[mike martell]

Rigging is a basic way of life where we hunt. I have been rigging everything I hunt for the last forty years. This topic gets sideways quick with most hunters who think it can't be done.

I was fortunate to be introduced to rigging and did not understand there was any other way to hunt. We just have way too much country and if you waited on snow like this year, you will not hunt.Roading and walk hunting will yield you some game but not like rigging.

Here is the problem with those with knowledge and wisdom, people just call b.s. on them and there dogs. Why would guys want to waste their time engaging in dialog when the biggest problem is convincing most it can be done?

Too bad this can't be a straight talk subject! Your loss readers.....Rigging is like bobcat hunting, it is more of a mind game, if you are lost over the concept of rigging, you can't expect much from your dogs...

[imchestnut]

I know that a good rig dog will probably strike a bobcat or lion the same as bear. I don't think for one minute a dog will strike a bobcat or lion that is as old as a bear track. There is a difference in the amount of scent. I also think there are several things that make this topic very different for different people living in different places and most of them are interrelated.

1. Conditions - Humidity, temperature, time of day, age of the track...they all play a HUGE role in how long tracks are movable and strikeable.

2. Road Systems - Do roads in your area go through areas where cats bed, move during the daylight or generally like to hang out? There are places (Oregon, Washington, North Idaho) that I have hunted that have probably 25 times the number of roads you can drive compared to where I hunt now. This helps because you can get into places where cats are not just moving through at ten PM or midnight but actually spending time hunting and moving during the daylight hours.

3. CAT DENSITY - I have had days hunting where I drive 250-300 miles through two day old snow and don't cut a track. I could strike around all day in these places and it wouldn't matter. I have never seen a dog strike a two day old cat track at 10 degrees from the truck. Most dogs have to put their nose in most the tracks to move them. People always say, go hunt in the rain...walk a canyon...you don't need snow. Thats all true. Especially if your in Utah or some places with higher deer and cat populations. I am assuming that people who strike for bobcat have much higher population than where I hunt. It's good to get the dogs out doing what they do in any case, however, in alot of areas its just not cost effective.

[slowandeasy]

5 years ago it was absolutely unheard of other than Ike. Now a days everywhere you look people are claiming to do it. I think it can be done but with out any consistency unless you have an awesome road system and or high cat populations. Dogs can do amazing things and saying a dog cant smell a hot track from 6' away but then turn around and say a dog trails and catches a 3 day old track seems silly to me. I have also heard guys say it couldnt be done but then say they hunt the tops of rims in the mornings because if a lion crossed below the rim the dogs would wind the track from the top. That sounds pretty close to riggin to me. Never say anything is impossible.

Joe,

Both you and I bought up the subject of Ike. I will just state my beliefs. First off by saying I would not know Ike, If I tripped over him. And although he may have been a little rough around the edges. He was probably more of the dogman than 75% of the people on the forum. And he would not tolerate mediocrity in a hound or in a blowhard human. And for not putting up with a blowhard human. He's no longer on this forum(go figure). When it is more than evident that a true dog men are almost as hard to come by as good hounds.

You also referenced, that nowadays everywhere you look, people are claiming to do it When it is more than evident that a good dog man is almost as hard to find as a good hound. I guess you can come to your own conclusion as to if people everywhere are doing this.

My thoughts on all of this rigging that's going on by a large percentage of people. Is more than likely you are striking on Shit. Letting your dog's roar off the back of the truck jumping out of the cab. At which time old wonder boy or girl thinks that he or she is being set up. For the good old try Tri-Tronics. And then our trainers and handlers simply make excuses that it was a scratch or a piss post. When you rigg 25 times and sometimes don't even come up with one cat treed. If you are content in your beliefs, all I can say is you are paying for the dog food . If you are happy that's all that counts

I also agree with you, Joe, never to say never. But when the percentage of good dog men remains where it is. I will take most claims with a grain of salt. This may offend a lot, but I guess I'm a little like Ike rough around the edges. Too bad. I got a go. I'm way late getting started this morning.

Take care, Willie

[Marshall]

You guys are pretty much calling everyone who Riggs for cats a liar if I understand correctly. II have rigged cats and I have hunted with guys that catch around 100 bobcats a year by rigging. I said it in the last topic on this and ill say it again, if you don't think that rigging a lion can be done but rigging for a bobcat can then you are just flat dumb! I also believe the question was can it be done or not and the amount of game available is irrelevant. I guess you guys will either have to go hunt with someone that does it or someone is going to have to video the dogs on the box rigging, trailing, and treeing a cat but even at that I think you guys would still try to disprove it. Keep up the talk fellas I get a real good laugh at topics like this

[sheimer]

You guys are pretty much calling everyone who Riggs for cats a liar if I understand correctly. II have rigged cats and I have hunted with guys that catch around 100 bobcats a year by rigging. I said it in the last topic on this and ill say it again, if you don't think that rigging a lion can be done but rigging for a bobcat can then you are just flat dumb! I also believe the question was can it be done or not and the amount of game available is irrelevant. I guess you guys will either have to go hunt with someone that does it or someone is going to have to video the dogs on the box rigging, trailing, and treeing a cat but even at that I think you guys would still try to disprove it. Keep up the talk fellas I get a real good laugh at topics like this

Marshall, I do believe that you all do strike cats from the box. I would like to know HOW you got YOUR dogs to do so. I just have run of the mill dogs that chase and catch a few cats. They bark on track and have been tought to be quiet other than that. I have, however, drove over a lion track or two and had them start opening from the box. They were praised for it. How do I get from where I am to where I want to be?

Scott

[mark]

Let em out of the box.

[Benny G]

Since I was "one of the haters" in the eyes of Dennis, I should chime in.

I have never said that it can't be done, all I ever wanted to know were the conditons, and how close the lion was to the "rig". Tom White, who is a member of this board, and a man that I trust completely, has told me of two different lions that his dogs rigged and caught. Tom spends more time in the woods than most folks, and he has only seen it happen twice. Both times were in bare conditions. That means that it can be done. I don't hunt in a manner that will ever produce a rig. All I ever wanted to know from Dennis was how often did his dogs rig in dry or bare conditions, and how close was the lion. Just by asking questions, and trying to have those questions answered in the context that they were intended, the drama would ensue.

I have not seen it all, and if ANYONE believes that they have, there is no longer any room for improvement. Life looses it's excitement and appeal ---- chichis arriba baby!

[imchestnut]

Marshall,

Have you noticed that most of the people who say they rig bobcats all the time are from Oregon? People from Montana, Idaho and New Mexico are saying ITS POSSIBLE BUT RARE? There might be something too that.

The question was, can you do it? Of course. There are alot more variables than it being possible. The amount of game is one of the variables. If you are in Idaho and striking around would yield you maybe 5-10 strikable tracks in a year, would that make a proficient bobcat or lion strike dog? In my opinion, to have a good strike dog for bear, you need more than three times that number of successful strikes, starts and catches in a year and bear is ALOT easier to strike from the box.

My point was, yes I believe it is possible, my buddy struck two cats in bear season this year and caught them. They were both fairly short races. If you don't have the appropriate game density, conditions, and/or road systems, its not an efficient or effective means of making a dog.

In curiosity, how far do you usually trail on these bobcat strikes before you are jumped up?

[Marshall]

Imchestnut, i don't live in a rain Forrest if that's what you are getting at. I live in the high desert where it's a mix of juniper, pine, and sagebrush. I've hunted in Idaho and the only day I was there I rigged a bobcat. Maybe the reason that you see cats getting rigged in Oregon more then anywhere else is because its the only thing left here to run that's worth while (legally). People here vest more time on bobcats then anywhere else in the country as a whole IMO. As far as how long before the jump happens well it all Varies, it could be 10 seconds or 3 hours just like anywhere else it just depends. Oregon isn't some magical cat factory with ideal conditions all the time. I experience -20 in the winter like most all of you and during those times no I don't box cuz that would just be dumb but during the fall all I do is box. If a guy cuts through all the bullshit excuses of this or that and really put forth the effort to make it happen then I would suspect he would have some success. If you are out looking for tracks and its not 20 degrees out then why not just throw the dogs on the box and see what happens..... You might just be surprised.

[Lil Joes BigGame hounds]

5 years ago it was absolutely unheard of other than Ike. Now a days everywhere you look people are claiming to do it. I think it can be done but with out any consistency unless you have an awesome road system and or high cat populations. Dogs can do amazing things and saying a dog cant smell a hot track from 6' away but then turn around and say a dog trails and catches a 3 day old track seems silly to me. I have also heard guys say it couldnt be done but then say they hunt the tops of rims in the mornings because if a lion crossed below the rim the dogs would wind the track from the top. That sounds pretty close to riggin to me. Never say anything is impossible.

Joe,

Both you and I bought up the subject of Ike. I will just state my beliefs. First off by saying I would not know Ike, If I tripped over him. And although he may have been a little rough around the edges. He was probably more of the dogman than 75% of the people on the forum. And he would not tolerate mediocrity in a hound or in a blowhard human. And for not putting up with a blowhard human. He's no longer on this forum(go figure). When it is more than evident that a true dog men are almost as hard to come by as good hounds.

You also referenced, that nowadays everywhere you look, people are claiming to do it When it is more than evident that a good dog man is almost as hard to find as a good hound. I guess you can come to your own conclusion as to if people everywhere are doing this.

My thoughts on all of this rigging that's going on. Is more than likely you are striking on Shit. Letting your dog's roar off the back of the truck jumping out of the cab. At which time old wonder boy or girl thinks that he or she is being set up. For the good old try Tri-Tronics. And then our trainers and handlers simply make excuses that it was a scratch or a piss post. When you rigg 25 times and sometimes don't even come up with one cat treed. If you are content in your beliefs, all I can say is you are paying for the dog food . If you are happy that's all that counts

I also agree with you, Joe, never to say never. But when the percentage of good dog men remains where it is. I will take most claims with a grain of salt. This may offend a lot, but I guess I'm a little like Ike rough around the edges. Too bad. I got a go. I'm way late getting started this morning.

Take care, Willie

Willie,
I only mentioned Ike as he was one of if not the first to start the rigging lion craze.

I know of a few guys that have rigged and caught lions. It is very very rare and the guys that I know that have done it are real houndsmen and work there dogs hard and expect hard hunting dogs to do their jobs. I have never rigged a lion but I have rigged two bobcats this year one I saw cross the road several hundred yards ahead of me. The other was a rig on a bobcat toilet. I did not catch or try to catch either one. But the dogs did blow air

But I do hear more and more people say they are rigging lions more and more. I do not believe 90% of what houndsmen say unless I know them personally. Its probably a jealous streak in me but its just how I am. But if you can prove to me once you aint full of it I will believe you to the end.

[slowandeasy]

Quote Lil Joe: But I do hear more and more people say they are rigging lions more and more. I do not believe 90% of what houndsmen say unless I know them personally.






Take care, Willie

[mike martell]

Willie....90% is pretty good odds....Keep in mind 90% of all game caught is done so by the same 10%....

[slowandeasy]

That is also probably a very acurate assesment of the sport!!

Take care,Willie

[houndnem]

I was one of the biggest naysayers to ike when he talked of riggin lions. I was barely able to rig a bear at the time and because of that my ignorance told me that it couldn't be done. I have done alot of rigging since the days I argued this and my opinion has changed 180. I had some guys from washington com out here and rig bobcats before my very eyes. after that I started being more open to the idea. then this winter it has not snowed so as we are driving 2 miles an hour I decided to put my best two rig dogs up. we are on the az desert and the guy I was with asked me what the hell I was doing. well about an hour later the box was blowing and we were looking at a nice tom track that we would have otherwise missed. it is not easy, and you are not going to rig every lion you cross, but I will tell you this, it works and your odds go up once a dog starts doing it consitant. people ask how you train a dog to do it? I have no idea, I just have a dog that will bark everytime he smells something he likes. sometimes it's a dead animal, which has been very helpfull. sometimes it's the air blowing right off a bear or lions @ss. sometimes it's just where something took a piss. and I'm sure there are guys who have rig dogs that make mine look pathetic but I'm riggin bears, bobs, hogs, and lions. whatever i am after there will be a dog on the box.

[imchestnut]

It can definetly be done. Just like everything, the more a dog does it, the better they get at it.

I had a dog or two strike a bobcat track yesterday. It was a pretty good (fresh) track in muddy snow. I also know that last week, I drove over 6 bobcat tracks and two lion tracks that were all in two days old or less (one lion track was less than 12 hours old) that none of my dogs would strike. Four of the six I had will strike night old bear tracks. All I am saying is, if you have to drive 200 miles in fresh snow to find a single track...why would a guy go out and strike with no snow or in the rain for a 1/8 chance that a dog will strike that track? Maybe some guys have more gas $$ than me...maybe my dogs just suck....thats always a destinct possibility. I know that if I go out with at least some snow, I will miss alot less tracks than I would if I relied only on striking them.