catching on the ground

[mondomuttruner]

Al..anything is possible, I wasn't there. This dog always has been a good dog but would never even look at something dead or that was in a cage.
How far to get winded?? The cats I've seen "play dead" didn't run for more than a half mile...

The dog in question I had to put down last week in her favorite tag swamp last week. She couldn't control her rear end. Worst part is, when I walked her into the swamp, she tried to take a cat track out. Being she couldn't move her rear legs very well, I was able to get ahold of her. Very tough thing to do...She was 13, lots of fun times behind her....

[dwalton]

Until we get to run a lot of cats with track collars on it is just a guess as to what happens. I have also seen cats that hit cold water be stiff by the time I got to the dogs where they killed it. I have seen on two occasion where in Eastern Oregon where cats were sleeping under logs{ Seeing the bed that they came out of} not go 70 yards and turn and fight the dogs both females. I saw a cat run across the road there turn out and catch him on the ground in less that 200 hundred yards. I feel in heavy coyote areas the cats seem to turn on the dogs more often. In western Oregon The dodging cats where it gets hunted a lot seem to be the areas that I catch more on the ground. I have not had a cat jump over 30 minutes this year[yet] treed or caught on the ground, thus I believe that speed or more important how a dog runs a track makes a difference. I run more dogs than most of you and feel when a cat squat or dodges it is more likely to get in front of a dog. I have hunted with a guy in southeastern Oregon the last few years that has hunted there for years and he made the comment that "until I hunted with you I had never seen or heard of a cat being caught on the ground over here, now I have seen several". I feel larger packs that are fast and run a track close will catch more cats on the ground. I have caught far more cats with this pack than I have ever caught with any other pack that I have hunted with. I had dogs in the past that caught a lot of coyotes on the ground, I don't think these are any faster just more of them. As Far as cats getting harder to catch that is true only if they get away time after time. I have had two areas that I was the only one that was able to hunt it, some cats were treed 8 times or more they just seemed to get easier and go up when they heard the dogs coming. I do no jump cats out or bother them in a tree in any during a training season. Just some of my thoughts and experiences. Dewey

[al baldwin]

Dewey thanks for the post, gives me something to think about & suspect you enjoy that. Don/t know who you hunted with in south weatern oregon, but if they have hunted for years and never seen a ground catch in this area that surprises me. All the local hunters that i knew have caught a few on ground as long as I remember. I congratulate you , catching every cat you run & no races lasting more than 30 minutes is certainly something to be proud of. I realize if you have produced dogs that can run a cat up tight & fast for thirty minutes without a lose in this terrain you will sure catch most cats. I also feel you are even a lot tuffer than I had heard after reading about your desert hunt. This debate about cat hunting has been going on for years. Recall Clarence Berg telling me George Nelson used to complain about the local hunters running these cats with coon dogs and educating the cats to the point his running dogs could not catch some of them. Never was sure if George was serious or not. He and Clarence got along well & Clarence had a sense of humor. Take care and please let us know if you complete the season without allowing a single cat to beat your hounds and no races lasting over 30 minutes. Thanks Al

[twist]

Terrian has a factor on catching bobcat weather it be on the ground in a hole or up a tree. For instance if a cat has rocks and cliffs and does not want to be caught it won't be. Cats can out manuever dogs in these conditions more times than not pure fact.Andy

[dwalton]

Al: I never hunted with George but did with his brother Don. I met Tommy Bernett [SP] and know Dave Johnson who all ran coyotes as well as cats and bear with their dogs. These guys could catch coyotes running them in the coast brush. Do you know any body now that can do that? I don't. To me coyotes are far harder to catch on the ground that cats. What is the difference from catching them then and now? I don't know anybody that runs them now but we do run one once in a while if we know it or not. I feel the difference is the hunter, dogs being in great shape and most important the dogs, how they ran a track. This ability to drive a track fast and stay on it is what is missing with most of our dogs today. The ability to do that comes from some of the running dog breeds. I think most of the dogs out there are many generations away from the running dogs and have been bred for treeing. I feel we have lost that track style in a lot of our dogs. That not to say we can't catch cats without it. I hunt bobcats to catch them, I like a good voice on a dog, I like to here a good race but bottom line I hunt cats to catch. I have been lucky enough to own or hunt with dogs that have made cat hunting look easy not hard as a lot of people seem to think it is. When I first Started trying to hunt cats hard [not just catching them with my coon and bear dogs] Roland Wilson gave me his old Spook dog to run cats with]. He was a Charlie Tant dog {Goodman Walker] I caught cats in the dry summer heat, at 10 and 11 years old he would run off and leave a got pack of dogs on cats. It was how he handled a track that made the difference. I have look for that ever ability to move a track always. The only place I have seen it is the running dogs. I have had good cats that were not running dogs but there is a difference when you get a good running dog that trees. One that trees is the key. Most people want a good tree dog so do I but it does no good to have a tree dog if you can't tree a cat with it. Dewey

[CRA]

I agree with Dewey that in high populated Coyote country where Cats get a lot of tormenting from Canines, I believe the Cat is more likely to stand its ground. Canines have been harassing the feline since the beginning. Anyone that’s hunted snow country for sometime should have noticed that Coyotes love to follow the Bobcat. Why wouldn’t they? Coyote’s get to torment their enemy (the feline) and a lot of times get to steal a free meal while they are at it.
I consider myself a (Show Me) hound hunter. I want to see it happen. When I hunted the coastal side of California every year we would have some jumped races that would end in stone silence. It was if someone clicked the shut off switch on a jumped race. Soon the dogs would filter into the road, one or two at a time. Im sure they caught the cat or fox on the ground, but since the dogs didn’t (show me) the game, I never counted it. I always chalked it up to, “a good race”. I would check the dogs for evidence of a fight but most the time I found nothing but their muzzle and eyes brush whipped.
One time Dad and I was hunting together and the hounds had a fire lit under a cat’s backside and the cat was heading close to the road, just like I described, “The switch was shut off” on the race and soon dogs started to appear in the road. I had a ring side seat to the race and never heard any type of fight or bay that would lead me to believe they caught a cat. None of the dogs showed any evidence of a fight. I told Dad I think they killed that cat. I grabbed my light and crawled around in the brush where the race ended and found the cat dead. In my opinion when a cat is (dogged) super hard they have very little fight left in them. Their lungs are close to busting and they have no wind left in them. They are like a fighter in the 15th round, winded and tired! Don’t think just because there wasn’t a bay up, sounds of a fight, or bloody ears and collars that the dogs didn’t stretch the cat. This is especially true with grey fox. A fox or hard dogged cat don’t put up much of a fight and if you don’t have the hounds in close hearing a ground catch can easily be missed and chalked up to a lost track.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is I do believe a lot more game is caught on the ground than we think. I’m sure most hound hunters are (Show Me) type hunters and seeing is believing. I have never seen or used a GPS system for dogs, but I’m sure they could answer a lot of questions about those races that ended with the shut off switch, if a guy took the inquisitive to climb into the brush and investigate the area the race ended at. Just remember some dogs are packers and will often times carry off a varmint some distance from where the initial catch happened. I will add that when I use the term “Shut off Switch” I mean not another bark, no more bawling around here or there, I mean the track went stone silent. If a jumped race ends with a few dogs bawling around here and there, they either made a bad lose or can’t locate the cat. This is just my opinion.
It’s been my observation over the years that when dogs catch game on the ground after a hard race, once it’s dead, they have absolutely no interest in chewing on it and normally come in fairly quickly. I have had dogs try and knock a guy down to the ground trying to grab and chew on a shot out cat, but that same dog can catch a cat on the ground after a hard race and wont so much as smell on the cat after it’s finished. Anyone else notice this with their dogs?

Dewey you are right, there is nothing better than a Running Dog that trees, except a Tree Dog that can run! They both have a place in a Cat Pack and I would gladly feed either.

[Warner5]

All good reading, have to agree with most that is said. J.C. next week you might catch 2 on the ground, then no more for months. Many possibilities why race's end on the ground. I am no expert, until garmin's I was alway's very leary about race's that ended on the ground. Seen to many hunters content to state race ended on the ground w/o any proof. Probably several reasons why it happens. Panic,exhaustion,confusion, not nesserally in that order probably accounts for most of the race's ending poorly for the cat. One thing I have noticed, cats that use water to lose dogs eventally get stretched. I dont know why but Mark may have it figured out.

I am going to make a comment on fast dogs and then leave it alone. I think people get confused when the word fast is used. Fast on a jump track is one thing and expected. But a dog that can run a track fast when other dogs just cant move it like that is special. Life time hunters only get to see a few of these dogs that can take a track this way. Just saying when some of these good ole hunters say fast thats probably what their refering to. John.

[twist]

One will never know until that dang bobcat will tell us as we have a higher population of yotes in this state and have heard of very few cats getting caught on the ground so one will never truely no the reason but fun trying to figure it out. Andy

[slowandeasy]

Quote Warner5 : I am going to make a comment on fast dogs and then leave it alone. I think people get confused when the word fast is used. Fast on a jump track is one thing and expected. But a dog that can run a track fast when other dogs just cant move it like that is special. Life time hunters only get to see a few of these dogs that can take a track this way. Just saying when some of these good ole hunters say fast thats probably what their refering to. John.

[mark]

CRA
When those races shut down fast like that and you aren't able to get in there and see for yourself for whatever reason. When the dogs get back to you smell their breath you should be able to smell cat if they did catch it, and there is always the look for hair in the dog turds a day or two later method also lol. I agree that when a cat that gets caught on the ground due to exhaustion it has very little fight left in It.My kid has a video of a cat hunkered down and the dogs finding it. It was over real quick! A lot of times i can tell they are going to catch on the ground because there is whole other level of intensity in the dogs just before the contact. If you are in a spot and able to hear it there is nothing like it, and that Andy really puts a smile on my face!

[al baldwin]

Enjoy reading all these post. Agree with a lot that has been written. When stated speed was not what caught cat on ground that is with my dogs. Most ground catches for me have come after a grinding race. Coarse if dogs were total slow suppose those would have eluded the dogs. Dewey I spent a lot of time hunting with Tom Barnette/s hound in Tom/s prime. Yes they were conditioned like olympic athletes and did catch coyotes as did the hounds owned by George Nelson. Tom & George were excellent shots and knew where those coyotes would cross and that elimated a bunch of problem coyote also. I don/t know any hunters who have the time or desire to hunt like those two did. I do believe there are dogs today that could have the same success if they were worked as those dogs were. There are a few coyotes caught with dogs in this area, not something most hunters talk about. As conditioned as those hounds of Tom/s & Georges were there was cats that they could not catch in this area. So when you bring your hounds here & catch every cat you run you have accomplished something no other hound hunter ( to my knowledge) as been able to do. Take care Al

[dwalton]

I have also seen a lot of cats caught that put up no fight and leave no marks on the dogs. I have owned a few dogs that bark dead on a cat and have one now. Most of the dogs come out but she will bark for an hour or more at a dead cat. It sure helps in finding them. I can not catch all the cats the dogs jump but will most and expect them to catch them all. If I except anything less than that I have let the dogs down and them me. I love to watch dogs work a cat, listen to a good trail job and jump race. For me the bottom line is I hunt cats to catch cats. Dewey

[twist]

CRA, thats what its all about having fun. I sure enjoy reading your posts truely educational. Andy

[Clyde Lawson]

Interesting forum, and seems everyone else chasing Mr. Bob has some of the same questions.

40 to 50% of cats that we run here in Oklahoma that are caught on ground, with number of these catches under trees. Number of times they will be caught in a creek or pond? Posted photo with story of hunt a few days back where cat was caught in creek.

Last week hunted in Eastern Oklahoma(mountains with heavy cover) for 6 days. Ran 16 tracks that lasted for 25 minutes to 2+ hours. Caught 5 cats on ground, treed two, and lost 9. Some of the losses were on roads & some were in stands of tall pines. The pines were in heavy groves and very tall. Dogs would not leave a 150 x 150 feet area or when they cast out to find track, would keep returning to same area and barking up? We looked and looked but could not find cat? This happens frequently when cat goes up in this area.

Our fur is not that great here, but unless we can be fortunate enough to be close to where catch was made, the hides are ruined! Not what we want but is what it is.

Of the five caught last week, only one was fit to skin. Fur was good though and man what training on my young dogs!

All of our races are dry ground and if there is freezing temperatures with any moisture, it is likely ice. We cannot get around even if we wanted to! The number of days that snow is on ground and you can hunt is probably less then 10 days per year or less.

Good posts, good hunting, and take care,


Clyde Lawson

[BlazeNBrat]

I think its all about these bobcats not wanting to be seen. Ground catches come more often with the territory ... Places you find guys(including here) catching a high percentage of cats on the ground have really thick ground cover and not a lot of tall timber, if any at all. That's where over 50% are on the ground. Most concealed place for Mr.bobcat to be is on the ground so they end up caught there. Why not stay on the ground where ten feet away, still can't seer them. I've walked into plenty of bayups where its like opening a cattail curtain to a bay, its damn thick!
Now take a region that has rocks, tall timber, fir trees etc. That's where these cats are gonna go to hide IMO, why not climb a tree you can hardly find them in, or go to the rock crevices they can hide in. They just don't want to be seen.
Every region has its challenges that make it different than the next, but no matter where you go I think the cats just don't care to be seen even when caught if they can help it.