National Hound and Tree dog Association

[Buddyw]

Our officer were initially selected by myself and my business partner and VP, Joe Newlin.
.....
Beyond the three executive officers (Pres., VP and Secretary) we have two directors.
....
The president and treasurer have access to ensure appropriate accounting

David, thank you for answering my questions.

Above pretty much sums up Majority of my concerns. You and your business partner are the executive board (ie executive generally means Paid or compensated members)

Regarding the Treasurer on your website indicates that your wife is the treasurer, so I assume only you and your wife are the only ones who have access to the bank account according to your statements

I'm not saying that you've done anything wrong, I'm not insisting that you will do anything wrong, however the way this foundation is setup is entirely focused way to much on you and your business partner. And it could get messy. Next when I consider your TailGate adventures show It does raise some concerns. I'm not opposed to you making a job and creating revenue through dogs Hence your TailGate Adventures was fine with me, I too support my family with my business involving dogs.

However with that said, If I "Buddy" were to create a National Association myself I personally would make extreme effort to make sure that it wasn't a "Buddy" or "DOUBLE U" thing and would definitely make allot of effort to properly disperse the funds and even decision making away from My control.

Just my two cents. Unfortunately with what and how you've chosen to organize this I can't help you until at minimum these issues were corrected.

Buddy

[TGA]

Perhaps I can summarize our vision...

There are many, many great clubs out there fighting a good fight. Some of them have been rather successful and are rather large organizations. Many more are struggling and are on a downward slide. And even those that are having success, have their limitations.

And the opponents are massive political organizations, anti-hunters, and radical activists with memberships in the 10s and 100s of thousands, with millions of dollars at their disposal.

And many believe it's a lost cause to attempt to compete, against those numbers, and feel it's better for us to keep our head down, and hope we're not noticed or bothered. But we believe that's because their experience is on a much smaller scale. BUT just imagine the organization that could be built, if we brought the big game associations, the various breed associations, the county coon hunters clubs, and the state associations together. That too, would be 100s of thousands! We're not asking any of them to give up their identity or stop what they're doing, just asking them to band together. To partner and support one another, through a National affiliation.

[TGA]

Buddy - I respect your feedback, but I think your making some erroneous assumptions. None of the officers or board members are being compensated, nor can we take personal gain from the business, as it's a tax-exempt non-profit audited by the state it's incorporated in, which in our case is Indiana, as well as the federal IRS. As the commercials say, "you don't mess with the IRS!"

And this isn't how we "chose" to organize, it's out of necessity. I started a business from scratch... so I needed to find people I could trust, who I knew shared my vision. AND I needed to find capable people who would volunteer countless hours, without any compensation. My wife is an accountant, Joe is a web developer, Dan has some lobbying experience, and Erica is an organizer who created her own DNR training programs. Who better to help build an organization with??? Could I have found other unknown people with similar experiences? Perhaps, but would they work for free, would they do so with passion, and could I trust them so that the wrong-doing your concerned about, wouldn't become an issue???

There's an old saying, about too many cooks in the kitchen, and in my professional experience (not TGA or NHTDA) managing and leading at several multi-million dollar public companies, it's very true. So, if you want a national organization to never get off the ground, and end up with a bunch of frustration and hard feelings, then start with a large board of directors with a bunch of different opinions and ideas!

I think there was a HUGE misconception on our TV show, and I think the same is starting with this organization... A national television show requires you to BUY air time from the networks, not get paid for it. It requires production costs to be covered, as well as travel expenses. The TV show was a HOBBY, not a personal business. And like my other hobby, just as much of a money pit. I and Joe spent literally thousands out of our own pockets, so hounds could be on TV, and all we ever got in return was some cool gear, and some of our expenses covered. We did generate some revenue from sponsors, but it NEVER covered all the expenses.

This non-profit is the same situation. If someday we became as large as the NWTF or Ducks Unlimited etc. we WOULD have a different organizational structure, with more diversity and oversight, and the officers running the business who ever they are, would be compensated just as any other business. But right now, we're a start-up that requires some dedicated volunteers who know and trust one another. I'm sure when Bill Gates was working in his dorm room, or Steve Jobs was in the garage, they utilized friends and family, but as their business grew, the organization matured along with it.

Another thing everyone should understand, is that when you incorporate as a "non-profit" the officers own nothing. The tax payers and the state own the organization, and the officers are simply "employees". In fact, if this goes under (I sure hope it doesn't) we have to find another non-profit to give all our assets to, or everything goes to the state. Which means, right now, someone would inherit a web site and some bills! This is not a personal business... a non-profit is not "owned" by anybody and has a good deal of governmental over-sight and reporting requirements, to ensure the tax-exempt business in not abused.

As far as "funds" and control goes... to date, I do indeed have the check book, but there are no funds. I've personally paid the legal fees to incorporate and acquire tax exemption, and Joe paid for the domain and web services, and either of us would be happy to pass on those duties! So please don't let the word "national" mean there's something there to be miss-allocated and/or taken advantage of. There will be nothing there, until we make it something.

With all of that said, if there are volunteers interested in getting involved, such as yourself, we would be happy to entertain giving them a position in the company to help manage, lead it, and provide additional oversight. But again, we can't have too many cooks in the kitchen, and we have to find capable people we can trust, so some relationship (either old or new) will always be there.

[mondomuttruner]

TGA, if I understand this right, you can't do much on a larger scale until the Assoc. gets bigger. Do you have any expectations of a time frame when this may happen?
Being from Wis., have you had any contact with the WBHA?

I would be more than happy to join for a chance of helping our sport. There are no guarantee's in life so what can it hurt...

[TGA]

Yes, mondomuttruner it's sort of a catch-22. Many want us to prove ourselves, prior to coming on-board, and yet without members, there's not much we can achieve! In my opinion, members, even more than money, is what is needed. Sure you have to pay the bills, but if you can't state that you represent X number of houndsmen/women, folks (especially politicians) won't take you seriously.

The same goes for Buddy's concerns... I can see where someone might be hesitant to invest in a small organization, but you have to start somewhere. You can't exactly schedule interviews, and then tell the candidates, "by the way, there will be long hours, lots of stress, little praise and no pay!" A "start-up" always starts with a small group of volunteers, that share a dream, and IF they are successful, the business and organizational structure, mature together. But you don't immediately hand off your dream, as you are still crawling, and say here's a concept, someone please run with it!

And yes, I met Al Lobner at the Wisconsin DNR hound training seminar, Erica and I presented. We also met again at the association meeting we held at Autumn Oaks. He seems interested, and has provided his "moral support" and some advice, but the WBHA has not yet joined as an affiliate. I believe it's still under consideration, but they too are probably in "wait and see mode".

Unfortunately, if everyone stays in "wait and see" mode, they'll see what they feared... nothing. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[mondomuttruner]

I understand what your saying TGA. Power is in numbers and I would be happy to be 1 more member to add on the list. Is this the right organization to support? I don't know..but at some point a person has to take a chance for change.
Please don't get into the habit of sending members propaganda every week or month, that money can be used for something better..

[Oak Ridge]

Our officer were initially selected by myself and my business partner and VP, Joe Newlin.
.....
Beyond the three executive officers (Pres., VP and Secretary) we have two directors.
....
The president and treasurer have access to ensure appropriate accounting

David, thank you for answering my questions.

Above pretty much sums up Majority of my concerns. You and your business partner are the executive board (ie executive generally means Paid or compensated members)

Regarding the Treasurer on your website indicates that your wife is the treasurer, so I assume only you and your wife are the only ones who have access to the bank account according to your statements

I'm not saying that you've done anything wrong, I'm not insisting that you will do anything wrong, however the way this foundation is setup is entirely focused way to much on you and your business partner. And it could get messy. Next when I consider your TailGate adventures show It does raise some concerns. I'm not opposed to you making a job and creating revenue through dogs Hence your TailGate Adventures was fine with me, I too support my family with my business involving dogs.

However with that said, If I "Buddy" were to create a National Association myself I personally would make extreme effort to make sure that it wasn't a "Buddy" or "DOUBLE U" thing and would definitely make allot of effort to properly disperse the funds and even decision making away from My control.

Just my two cents. Unfortunately with what and how you've chosen to organize this I can't help you until at minimum these issues were corrected.

Buddy

Buddy,

First let me introduce myself. I'm Joe Newlin, I am the Vice President of NHTDA currently. I was also Dave's "partner" for the television show.

While I respect your reluctance to "support" NHTDA, I will forever be confounded by it. Several years ago, a group of three individuals got together one hot August afternoon and put our heads together and formed the Hoosier Tree Dog Alliance. I was one of those individuals. We spelled out our vision, our purpose, and a set of goals that we would work towards over the next several months.

At the end of the day, we had chosen officers, a President, Vice-President,and Secretary. I was chosen to be the latter. All three of us were also on the board of directors....we were all we had. To make a long story short, we managed to accomplish our goals, were able to garner some members, and even got some corporate support to offset the costs of incorporation and the 501(3)c tax exempt status.

Today, that organization is a very successful advocate for hound and tree dog owners and hunters. They have a seat on the "sportsmans roundtable" in Indiana, and thus have a voice in the adoption of new regulations and administrative rules regarding all hunting in Indiana. We accomplished our goal of at least having a voice in the State House.

All of us volunteered our time, dug into our pockets and planted some "seed money" because we knew that it was the right thing to do, was needed, and we believe we could make an impact.....

While Dave and I were spending hundreds of hours putting on a national TV show, simply for the joy of doing so and hoping beyond hope that we could put a positive spin on hunting with hounds, we discussed the fact that there are small fractured groups of our brothers and sisters in hunting with dogs. We were amazed that nobody on the planet could give us a decent guess at how many people were involved in this sport.

Out of that discussion came a goal. That goal was to one day to spark the formation and hopefully the growth of an organization that sought to bring us all together. I didn't circle the date on the calendar, but early this spring Dave and I re-visited that thought process..and on that afternoon, the NHTDA was born. As Dave mentioned, he dug into his pocket and fronted the organization the funds for Incorporation. Next was the tax exempt status after incorporation...while I fired up a web server, and got a domain name in gear. Both of us have spent countless hours in the mean time building a web site, visiting clubs, talking the talk, and yes....walking the walk.

As for your concern about how the organizations money is spent, let me ask you, have you looked at the reporting requirements for 501(3)c charities that the IRS requires? Let it be known that after we file our first earnings statement, that it is illegal for us to NOT provide a copy to anyone who asks for it. That is one of the primary reasons that I insisted that we get the tax exempt status....transparency in action.

While we are on the subject of transparency, let me say this..I have indeed been re-imbursed for my web hosting cost, and the cost of the domain name. NOT ONE THIN DIME MORE. I don't expect more... I've been down and unemployed for a while due to a surgery....if I didn't need it, I would have donated it back to the organization.

I lost track of the money that I took out of my pocket to produce the TV show. We had sponsors that were contractually obligated to pay for advertising that did not pay.....someone had to cover those costs. I promise you, we didn't get PAID to do that show, we paid to supplement our sponsors advertisements on national TV. When the price of a seasons air time went from $50,000 a year to $100,000 a year, we realized that the hound would could not support those kinds of costs like say the deer hunting industry or fishing industry. That is the REAL reason the show is no longer on the air. I never made a dime on that production and it cost me thousands of dollars. Dave and I both sold our souls to provide what we thought was a service to the hound world.

One of the action items on my plate is to form an "advisory board". A group of interested individuals who will help us set direction, identify and prioritize what, when, and how we should proceed. I'm working on that, and have at least verbal commitment from several prominent houndsmen. Since I am from Indiana, and have a very few big game houndsmen in my country, I have yet to identify a person or persons to assist us with our vision into the big game world.....but you can bet your bottom dollar I'm up for suggestions!

Look, we are young, but between Dave and I we have a whole lot of business experience. Both of us are or have been project managers or program managers. We are not crooks, cheats, embezzlers, or con men.....we are houndsmen that are passionate about this sport, and both are willing to sacrifice our time and even our wallets to ensure that our children and grand children get to enjoy our passion, as well as your children and grandchildren.

We know that if we don't stand together, we will fall apart!

[TGA]

I understand what your saying TGA. Power is in numbers and I would be happy to be 1 more member to add on the list. Is this the right organization to support? I don't know..but at some point a person has to take a chance for change.
Please don't get into the habit of sending members propaganda every week or month, that money can be used for something better..

We will be pleased to have you, and will do our best to make sure it's a worth your commitment!

And yes, I too dislike too much propaganda, but we will send out an electronic newsletter a couple times a year, to keep members up to speed on what we're doing (for transparency) and hopefully share some success stories!

Thank you!
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

[Buddyw]

Joe,

I never said you were crooks or that your intentions were not in the right place. I think your intentions are good. I don't think anyone is claiming you have bad intentions here. At least I haven't seen it and I hope someone isn't reading my comments to think I'm calling you a crook. Because that is far from what I'm saying.

The TV show has no impact on my decision except it just makes me wonder you started a show and apparently it didn't survive, Now you both are starting a new venture. Are you jumping to a new venture feet first, Have you done enough homework to understand what/who and how is working and what's not working?? I wish you had done more homework with State associations that are active and involved in the fight before starting this.

Look you don't have to explain failures to me.. I have a long list of Failures behind me so I get it. I've learned more from my failures then I ever will from success. Same thing goes with my dogs, I've screwed up more dogs than I like to admit. So I'm not holding you accountable for the TV show not making it. But I have to try and figure out what did you learn from it. If your answer is simply the Hound world won't support a TV show regarding dogs, I would politely disagree with you. The answer has to be more like the hound world wouldn't support your tv show for what ever reason. What did you learn from it and what are you going to do differently. (I'm not looking for you to answer that to me!)

Anyways, I'm getting off my soap box. I don't think this conversations is healthy for you or me.

I want to re-iterate that I think your intentions are good and in the right place.

I too will join your association as an individual member, I'm not opposed to it. I just can't give you full throttle or try to help fund your association with all the questions I have.

Good Luck! You guys have my number I would be happy to discuss this further on the phone, But I'm not going to continue here.

Buddy

[easttntrapper]

I understand what your saying TGA. Power is in numbers and I would be happy to be 1 more member to add on the list. Is this the right organization to support? I don't know..but at some point a person has to take a chance for change.
Please don't get into the habit of sending members propaganda every week or month, that money can be used for something better..

X2
I am joining too. If there even a chance that this organization came make it, Its worth my money. I have talked to some locals about this organization and everyone wants to wait and see. Look what Maine went through. California has done lost there rights. All of us are on there list and you can bet they are preparing. So we need to be preparing too. Even if this don't pan out. I have blown 20 bucks on worse things.

[TGA]

Buddy - I've left you a couple messages, but understand you're busy dealing with some family matters. I'm looking forward to speaking with you to address any questions/concerns you have.

You do bring up some valid points, and both Joe and I have done a good deal of self-reflection, and research. Or at least as much as can be done, since there was not a national television show dedicated to hounds and tree dogs, other than ours (that did run for two years), nor has their been a truly national non-profit for houndsmen, or at least that we could find any history on. We are aware of several groups that have attempted both endeavors (TV show and non-profit) that never got off the ground, and yes, we also learned from them.

I also realize you don't want to get in an on-line debate, and neither do I, they are too complex and untimely. But you have made some insinuations, that can't just be left out there publicly without being addressed. You made a comment about, "the way this foundation is setup is entirely focused way to much on you and your business partner." Unless I'm blind to something, this association isn't "focused" on us at all. It was created by us, and is currently being managed by us, but our "focus" is on helping houndsmen and existing clubs and associations.

In you're last post, you wrote, "I wish you had done more homework with State associations that are active and involved in the fight before starting this." I'm quite certain, that we did do a great deal of homework, and I firmly believe that nothing that we have done, interferes with anything that existing associations are working on.

There are many associations that we are familiar with, and probably many more that we are not. BUT, we are quite simply building the proverbial table, for everyone to gather around. We've created a charity foundation, that we hope gains momentum, as well as a youth scholarship fund. And we're working on a law-enforcement education program. All the rest, will be defined, when folks and association's accept our invitation, and "gather around the table"! In other words, we've done what we can, that clearly makes sense, and the rest that to your point, requires more understanding or "homework", will be started when we have more associations engaged, that can help us make informed decisions on actions and priorities.

David Schmidt
219-614-0654

[mondomuttruner]

Seems every state fight for hunting with hounds is right on the edge, could go one way or the other. Wouldn't it be nice for a national org. to step in and turn the tables in our favor with backing and numbers of people willing to stand behind us...Maybe I'm dreaming but hey, I'll take that chance.
Everybody's been standing back waiting to see what is going to happen, how's that worked for Cali and other states? I think it's time to go all in and take the offensive. Is there a down side?

[TGA]

Absolutely... there are MANY, MANY small hound and tree dog clubs out there, and several that are quite large. IF we can affiliate ourselves with them, and partner on initiatives, that phone call representing a couple hundred THOUSAND houndsmen/women, is not really that far out of reach.

[Unreal_tk]

I think if you had a 3rd party of a existing state club running the money or having that persons approval before funds can be withdrawn. That may alleviate the issues Buddy is having a problem with. I'm sure if you attended some phone conferences with that proposal of integrating a person from there club you would have some good feedback. Buddy is right to be suspicious, as anyone should when money is involved, especially if it can add up and be in the thousands quickly.

[TGA]

Guys and Gals - I appreciate the thoughts and ideas, and understand the concerns, but with all due respect, NO organization has some other organization make the decisions about their financials. That would be like saying, we don't trust our congress (probably not far from the truth) so we'll have Russia in charge of the money!

What an organization does do, is put checks and balances in place and ensures transparency. Which we've done with becoming a 501.3(c) tax exempt national non-profit, that has all their finances auditable by the state and the IRS. AND since we're tax exempt, we have to present our financial statements to ANYONE upon request. We also have a growing board of directors, that have to approve all expenses, where no two people have a majority.

In addition, the affiliate club's officers have the opportunity to be part of our advisory board. It's up to them... some want to be involved and some don't. That provides perspective and opinions from across the country and hound and tree dog community.

BUT, all of this is to ensure there's no "funny business" and that we're democratic about decisions. It does NOT mean everyone will be happy! We learned that from the TV show... no matter what you do, someone has a gripe. If we aired a big game hunt, someone in the small game community complained, and vice versa. If we aired a bluetick, someone wanted to know why their wasn't more black and tans?!? If we filmed in the Northeast, someone in the South was upset!

This is why a national non-profit, representing all houndsmen/women will be a challenge. But in our opinion, it's what needs to happen to achieve the strength in numbers we all will need!

David Schmidt
219-614-0654