Thoughts On Only Killing Big Toms

[huntinlass]

I don't really have any thoughts that haven't been already said. I like what you guys are pointing out.

[tracypayne]

i feel like our biggest enemy is the fish&game those cats ate good on those sheep while it was closed then the reality slaped them in the face and they said that was stupid for closing no offence but to many young ones making huge choices like that need some old school help on some things.

[PIGLET]

I like everyone points, but may i add a suggestion and this is only a suggestion because it would take fish and game to go along with it.. I want to know in utah, idaho, new mexico and montana, what if you had a draw only on cats. No over the counter tags and no outfitter tags. I know in washington pre 96 we had a draw only and this was for each unit, we had more cats and a good mixure of females and toms. If you got drawn then the decision begun would you hold out for a big tom or did you only have 7 days to hunt so any cat would work. Houndmen recieved some tags and killers(general public) got some so it worked out.. If you didn't get drawn you could still pursuit hunt the whole season, I know this is a dream idea, I just want you to think about it in depth and tell us what u think.. This way it keeps overharvesting in a unit, you can still pursuit hunt in it and without a female quota people would hold out for a nice cat since the unit was not going to close down suddenly..Just food for thought

[Ike]

I remember the draw tags and have lived through the harvest objective tags as well. For the most part, limited entry hunting puts the harvest in the hands of the public and or the state, while harvest objective provides more control for the houndsmen that feed those dogs..........

I suppose you see where I'm headed and that's I prefer that the houndsmen control the harvest and not people outside the sport. It is true that as a houndsmen I can run down an kill a big tom every year whereas the limited entry would eliminate me from ever taking a cat. Personally I think reducing the harvest units to numbers that brings back the population is better than giving control of the harvest to outsiders..........

And it doesn't matter whether it's limited entry or not if you walk alot of people into a tree they'll want to kill whatever you put up--tom or bitch! And if it's female in low population density areas it doesn't matter what tag killed that lion.........

I walk away from a brute tom lion about every year with a tag in my pocket, and I prefer that system to taking some lucky tag holder out to kill a lion. And why shouldn't I, I have been the one that's bought the dog food, trained the dogs, and used up the boot leather learning where and how to find those animals....

The older I get the more I figure a person should have to earn their way, and one of those ways is training hounds, buying a tag and learning how to run those animals down.

But then I ain't trying to make a living killing lions for clients either........

ike

[Rigdogs]

Good points Ike. Lets not forget that as the houndsmen we are ultimately in control of what is harvested. For the life of me I cant figure out why anyone would choose to harvest small females or juvenile cats? Maybe people haven't figured out that killing cats has nothing to do with training young cat dogs? I personally think that its more about stroking the ego than doing whats best for the sport. If a hunter wants to kill a lion than they should be commited enough to hunt selectively, leave those small lions out there for seed. If you don't want to put the time in to harvest mature toms than you don't deserve a cat! Chasing a small lion and leaving it in the tree should be enough of a reward, besides small lions look don't look as good hanging on the wall. Also females at this time of the year either have kittens stashed away somewhere or are pregnant. You kill her and you kill them all. Don't cut everyones throat and do whats right. Carry on. Rigdogs

[sheimer]

I'm new to this sport, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around all things involved. This is one topic that I'm still working on. I have a couple questions to start with:

1) How much area can a big tom travel?
2) How many females can he breed in a year?
3) How old are the males before they reach breeding age? females?
4) Will younger toms kill kittens as the older toms do?
5) How long will sub-adults remain dependant on their mother?
6) What is the desired male/female ratio?
7) What age is the typical "pumpkin head" tom?
How much area is considered a female's home area?
9) Will females kill one another in defense of their home area?


From my understanding at this point I advocate only killing mature toms. In the area that I hunt there is a quota of 8 and a female sub-quota of 4. In a discussion about this very topic the other day with a fellow cat hunter, he brought up the point that if we as cat hunters would go out and kill the first four females we saw, the toms in essence would all have a year to get more mature without fear of being harvested. His theory was to preservve the toms so they could get closer to the trophy size. I guess his idea was "quality not quantity". I tried to argue the point because I enjoy treeing a female just as much as a tom. My theory is I like to hear the dogs work - I don't care what on. Except when they trash off.

I'm just trying to get a thorough understanding of all aspects before I jump in the middle of an arguement and not have the facts to support my beliefs.

Thanks,

scott

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I don't no the accurate answers to you questions as I believe each area could be alittle different, sheimer. Dominant toms seem to have a travel area greater then 200 sq miles and the females ina good deer area may only need 5 sq miles to live out her days. In side the mature toms area can have many overlapping areas from other mature toms, its only when they cross pathes that a dominant issue arises. As well as the females, juvenile toms will also live in the dominate toms area but far more discreetly, spending a lot of time hunting and hiding out ina small draw or canyon hoping that a mature tom does not notice. I have seen young toms live in under a square mile for most of the winter and then take off for parts unknown when a big tom gets on his trail some return with battle scars others never return. As far as pumpkin heads. in my area a typical 5 yearold is pushing 15 inches, 6, 7 and older generally always make the book, the genetics are far above normal when comparing to the lower 48 . Just a side note 3 Mature toms were killed within 5 miles of my house with in a 3 week period all qualifing for the B&C this really shows you I have no clue what is going on out there.

[Ike]

Nothing wrong with killing some lions in a place like British Columbia or Alberta if the population is doing well. I've had a number of people contact me wanting to slam a big tom and I tell them to look north to Canada, and they pretty much leave me alone after that.........

ike

[Ike]

I personally think that its more about stroking the ego than doing whats best for the sport. Rigdogs

One of my hunting buddies calls it the "being the Hero syndrome."

ike

[switzie]

good topic very interesting i like all the differnet views