trash running and genetics?

[Ike]

remember this, bullshit your friends! never your self when it comes to a hound.

I always tell people you can bullshit your friends but not yourself, but if you bullshit me (and I catch you) then the friendship is probably over............

ike

[Mike Leonard]

M&M,

You are a wise and honest man. I won't say but you are wise as I said so you know.

10-4 on the smart factor.

Ike,

I have heard so much BS at times out of some around here that I almost believe it myself they do such a good job. LOL!

Back to my biblical roots: Be sure your sins will find you out, but then again the TRUTH shall set you free.


Have fun!

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I agree with most the posts on here. Never seen a 100% broke dog, and never seen a dog born '"naturally less trashy." I've seen SMART dogs that are easy to train and control, but if they have any hunt at all, a little has to be taken out of 'em on occasion. The only dogs I've seen people say are "trash free" are the same ones that are standing under your feet not doing much of anything. It's not cause they are broke, and the other dogs are running trash, its because you have to beg them to go hunt at all!

My old dog was smart. I toned him up maybe two times, and he stayed clean. He was smart enough to figure it out. I guess some would say he was naturally trash free. But I sure know it's not the case for them all, cause his sister here will strike a deer she just got done getting fried for. Not the same mental capacity. Some strains of dogs are SMARTER than others, bottom line. And god knows we all need to breed for more of those strains!

Good trash race is good to get that blood pumpin' and work on your extensive knowledge of the English language at the top of your lungs. Everyone should try it now and then. I find after a while all those critters in a tree start looking the same, and the storys get to be a little boring. But one good trash race will be talked about for a LONG time. Try not to take it so serious.

[bearbredplotts]

I honestly dont believe anyone can breed the trash out of any dogs. they have to hunt, thats what genetic code is bred into all hunting dogs. some dogs i believe are alot smarter, and can pick up on what is good to run and tree. other strains i believe have so much competition bred into them, thay are a little harder to break.
but in the end i believe it is up to the hunter to know the difference on what game the dog is chasing. Praise the dog on what you want him to run and he'll be more than happy trying to please you.
i thought my 5 year old dogs were broke off coyotes but last year proved otherwise. lol needless to say i had a coyote race at the begining of last bear season. i guess thats how it goes.
the man i got my latest plott from in north carolina told me he still has a coyote race every now and then, so i dont feel so bad.
most guys lie to themselves or just dont know there dog is trashing.
Me? at least i dont lie to myself otherwise i wouldnt catch that many bear

[Frontier]

This post is just to one sided - so I'll be the odd man out . Some 25 years ago or so I talked with some o'l boys back east about hounds and I was learning all I could and gathering information on breeding and such. I'd been in the hounds about 4 or 5 years and with all the credit going to my hunt'n partner I was catch'n game. I was so lucky to start out with a top houndsman who hunted hard and caught a lot of game.
Any way I didn't know much and listened pretty close to the guy's that were catch'n game. So going back to the subject - this fellow was telling me about this certain line of hounds that realy didn't want much to do with hooved game. And told me a few stories that I bought into and talked about this old dog and his offspring. One story was a fellow some where back there that run deer with hounds and had picked up a pup of this line that realy wanted to hunt and looked like he was going to run a hole in the wind. Any way his boy had taken this pup coon hunting a few times with a friend who coon hunted and the pup run and treed like he'd done it before. Well the father took the dog and was putting him out with his deer dogs and they killed deer but this dog wouldn't be there when they shot a buck and they would find him treed on a coon just about every time they hunted. I thought that was pretty darn neat! And a couple more stories about night hunting and this line of dog getting treed while the rest of the cast was running deer. It kinda stuck with me after hereing the same story told by another fellow. They told me those hounds didn't care to run deer. I'm still not sure what to believe! I do know this one fellow told me he sold a male from this line of dogs for $5000 in 196_?. He must of had something going for him! Anyway I bought in to this line of hounds 20 some years ago and have never regreted it. I agree with it being alot of IQ - but I still wonder about what those o'l boys told me. I had a dog I purchased from one of those guys at a year and a half old that didn't know his name and couldn't laod in the truck - you guys would run me off the web site if I wrote about how that dog turned out on big game. I want to thank Harold Dickerson for helping me get that hound - it's made the past 20 years of hound hunting the best part of my life! Also, thanks to Joe House and Bobby Shive's for thier insight and taking the time and talking to this dumb hayseed.
frontier
PS - That hound line those o'l boys where talking about was House's Bawlie.

[RIFLEMAN]

Alot of folks have provided some good input regarding the conceptual aspects of the topic, so I will address some specifics.

Based on my consistent and non-interrupted experience with the line since 1993, I personally believe that dogs of Loose Bruce breeding fit the bill. I am not saying that these dogs inherently turn their nose up at trash from the day they're born by any means, but rather, require very little negative reinforcement to convince them that running trash is no fun. While I cannot say that it is an ability to quickly associate the trash with the negative stimulus (i.e. a dose of TriTronics-oxide) or an instinctive disinclination towards pursuing trash, what I am certain of is that none of my Bruce dogs have ever required more than a couple of lessons to break them, and none have ever been habitual or stubborn trash runners.

[livetohunt]

I had an old timer one time tell me that if your dog is running Coyote. Then to kill one and skin it keep it in the pin with the dog. He said to tie it buy his food and make him even wear it when he is in there. Said it works really good at stopping him from running Coyote???? I have never tryed it so dont know if it would work or not???? Might be one of them old wives tales?

[Mike Leonard]

I have to agree with the dogs along the line of Woodscreek Loose Bruce and Shives Goldhill Tom, as well as some other House's Cheif bred dogs as being pretty easy to straighten out on junk. I have two males that are heavy on that breeding on the bottom side and they do not like electricity at all.

Interesting on the House's Bawlie line. This goes back a long ways and not too many dogs show old Bawlie in their pedigree these days.I had a freind who had a son of Bawlie out of a Tarlington's Bawling Bowser female. This was way back when I first started, and Clark had made a Night Champion out of this dog, and he was a coon dog for sure. I had several pups out of this dog and different females and possibly it was the females side or the Bowser line in them but these were the hardest running deer dogs I have ever seen. I had one that was a dead ringer in looks for House's Bawlie himself I called him Leader. He could not be broke off deer I tried everything shock, scent, the goat method and he would just run them harder. I could lose him in the evening on a deer and pick him up the next morning crossing a road and he would still be running deer. Double Tuff for sure but I couldn't get him even bent. I finally broke him with a 130 gr. bullet out of a 270, but he wasn't much good for anything after that. LOL!



I got a Vaughn's Blue Mack male right after this and one good threshing with a cottonwood branch and this dog to my knowledge never ran another deer.

With this expereince you would have thought I would be a died in the wool bluetick man to this day and would have left them walkers far behind. LOL! Just goes to show how smart I am.Not really it is just certain lines and certain crosses and there are good and bad in all of the breeds.

[Maskwasbangenblue]

I know a houndsman that claims his dogs are running bear but in reality all wev'e ever seen in front of it is moose, but he insist it is a straight bear dog and it must be everyone elses dogs starting trash ( his dog, in his mind, is trash free only thing it could be)have to be honest with yourself

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I heard of a fellow that would stick his trashy deer dogs in a 45 gallon drum with a couple deer legs and roll it down a hill. It seemed like it would weed out the good and the bad as if the deer legs were gone when you let him out you probably will never break that hound.

[Nolte]

A buddy of mine had a black dog awhile back that was an Ace deer dog. He did everything imagineable to try and break this dog. I think the only thing he left out was trying to hypnotize the damn thing. The worst part was he'd be straight for a month and then just start crankin again. He finally said screw it and just sold the dog to some guy in Ontario for a deer dog. That guy couldn't have been happier and kept in touch hoping he'd get another dog he couldn't break.

I sure wish our state would let a guy run deer with dogs. I'd be a leg up on nearly everybody. Especially if I could find one that would only run bucks. That sure sounds a lot more fun to me than freezin my ass off in a tree stand.

Hey chilc, I bet if nothing else he broke them of going into a barrel.

[Everlast]

"Hypnotize the dog" ..................classic. I'm busting a gut over that. Good one.

[mike martell]

frontier is dead on the money. i too was in the same circle as frontier stated. we were neighbors in those days. harold dickerson had something special in old bruce. i had a direct son of bruce called eve's swampwater amos.i crossed him to my old kate female several times. this produced some awesome dogs. not to stray off the original post to far. the reason these dogs ran little or no trash was simply because they were born to run and tree game. they needed no introduction when it come to catching. this line made me look like a dog handler.when in all honesty all i did was chauffeur them to the woods.they were just gamey dogs. when you cut them loose they would keep you skinning furs.these are the dogs i use as a measuring stick each and every day that i hunt.i know they are out there. it is getting harder to replace those dogs of years gone by.

[Big Mike]

If you look at pointing breeds of dogs which ive owned a few. The dog out of good lines are born bird crazy, one just has to show them which birds. But the bird hunting instinct is breed in them. If i understood Steve Matthes book correctly he was trying to breed a line of dogs that were born cat crazy, with an instinct that cats were the #1 goal. Not sure if he ever achieved what he wanted. But he figured that if it could be done with bird dogs why not hounds. So i think its possible to breed a line of dogs that is predetermined to prefer one type of game, but breeding trash completely out i don't think so. Theres a good goal for breeders! Unfortunately my dogs will chase anything that moves if allowed hahaha

[blueticker78]

I THINK THAT SOMETIMES WE NEED TO STOP AND USE SOME COMMON SENSE WITH OUR HOUNDS, WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE IS NO STRAIN OR BREED OF HOUND OR ANY OTHER DOG OUT THERE THAT IS TRASH FREE, NOW WE CAN HELP LOWER THE CHANCE OF A DOG BEING REALLY TRASHY BY TRAINING HIM OR HER PROPERLY BUT STILL THE SAME EVERY DOG WILL TRASH ONCE IN AWHILE, AND WE SOMETIMES ARE TO BLAME FOR THIS AS WELL LIKE THE STORY ABOUT THE MOOSE, THE MOOSE TRACK WAS PROBALLY THE HOTTEST TRACK IN THE AREA AND THEY MAY HAVE THOUGHT THAT WAS WHAT THEY WERE PUT DOWN ON IVE SEEN IT HAPPEN BEFORE WE GET EXCITED AND ENCOURAGE THE DOG TO DO THESE TYPE OF THINGS SOMETIMES TOO, FOR EXAMPLE LAST YEAR I TOOK OUT A YOUNG DOG TO LOOK FOR A CAT TRACK, AND TO MY SURPRISE WE FOUND A TRACK THAT HAD BEEN LEFT THE NIGHT BEFORE, LONG STORY SHORT THIS CAT WAS FOLLOWING A PORCIPINE AND IT FOLLOWED TO ITS DEN AND THEN ON WHEN IT DIDNT CATCH ITS MEAL WELL I PUT THE DOG ON THE TRACK NOT THINKING ANY THING OF IT AND SHE TOOK IT RIGHT TO THE PORCI DEN, AT THIS POINT I HAD TO USE SOME COMMON SENSE AND REALIZE I PUT HER ON THIS AND I ENCOURAGED HER SO I DIDNT SCOLD HER I WAS STERN AND TOOK HER AWAY AND PUT HER BACK ON THE CAT TRACK AND SHE DID TREE THAT CAT, WITH A GOOD HOUND WITH SOLID GENETICS AND TRAINED PROPELY WE CAN ELIMINATE A LOT OF TRASH RUNNING BUT NEVER ALL, ANOTHER THING TO REMEMBER IS GENETICS IS WHY OUR HOUNDS TRAIL AND TREE SO IF YOU HAVE A BEAR DOG AND YOU KEEP DUMPING HIM IN THE WOODS WITH NO BEAR AND ALOT OF COONS CHANCES ARE HES GOING TO RUN COON AFTER AWHILE OR WHAT EVER IS PREVELANT IN THAT AREA ESPECIALLY IF ITS SOMETHING ELSE THAT CLIMBS BUT IF THEY CANT FIND A CRITTER THAT WILL CLIMB THEY WILL RUN WHAT EVER IS THERE NO MATTER HOW WELL THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINED, AND A GOOD DOG AIMS TO PLEASE SO IF YOU DUMP HIM ON THE WRONG GAME HES PROBALLY GOING TO RUN IT HE WANTS TO PLEASE YOU, THERE IS WAYS TO NOT ELIMINATE TRASH RUNNING WHEN WE ACCIDENTLY PUT OUR DOGS DOWN ON UNDESIRABLE GAME BUT TO LESSON IT. I PUT MY YOUNG DOGS DOWN ON OFF GAME TO CORRECT THEM AND THEN I DO THE SAME THING WITH DESIRED GAME AND PRAISE THEM, I DO THIS WITH THE OLDER DOGS AS WELL TO SEE HOW THEY REACT AND CORRECT THEM IF NESS, JUST MY IMPUT THANKS FOR LISTENING...