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AZDOGMAN wrote:Shiemer, All im saying is a dog has a hard time learning to trail a lion when there are 3 or 4 better, faster dogs in front plowing through the snow. You might make a better tree dog but he needs to learn to trail. Your best bet at that point is to tie dogs and let it jump and let them go on there own but its red hot and you get the same training with a mini lion in a live trap. I promise you a dog is better off trailing 10 lions and not catching them, in a situation that the pup smells the tracks and gets to trail, than they are looking at 10 lions in the tree on tracks that they had no chance to smell and trail. If you hunt the dirt you understand what im saying.


Im not saying that its not good training cuz if you hunt only the snow you want a dog to learn to run a snow track. I think a good snow dog runs mostly by sight once the dog smells that its a lion track. The key is fewer dogs on a snow track and a pup will catch on faster. At least till they get the idea, then they will be fighting to be in the front of the pack.

I hunted with a well known lion hunter around here and he runs like 10-15 dogs on lions in the snow. We made a lose and i circled it and found the track. I called for dogs and got to watch a couple good dogs trail up the track and a dozen dogs running down the track cheerleading and not doing anything. But it sure sounded impresive i guess.

You are right about that!!!!

Ok here's my 2 cents. More dogs trampling a track in the snow seems to affect the track more. Also snow track are trailed faster with less losses so less need for more dogs. If you take a night old dry ground track and the same night old track in snow, the dogs can trail and catch the snow track twice as fast as they will the dirt. Usually even in good night old tracks in the dirt there are quite a few losses. The more noses looking for the losses the better.

Also hunting horseback in the dirt like Ike said wears dogs out even when they are not trailing so the more noses and help when a track is found the better. Another reason us horseback dirt hunting dummies take so many dogs is training. Even when your not finding a track the dogs are getting exercised and learning what not to chase. I like to take 4-5 good dogs then 1-2 young'ns so they can learn even though i know a year old pup is more problems than help LOL.

The biggest reason is I still havnt learned that if sold 80% of my dogs, all my mules bougth a toyota and drove around in the snow i would catch more lions and save money. So it boils down to stupidity!!!!

Ike I agree trailing from frozen snowy north sloped to bare south slopes is some of the toughest trailing conditions

I"ve sure made the mistake of dumping too many on a snow track and messin the whole thing up, especially young dogs that track up everything without knowing whats going on. But have run 8 or 10 on the dirt cause they don"t mess it up. I have a couple track straddlers and some that drive a track hard , almost too hard and make looses and come back, pick it up and go again. Young dogs get lots of oppertunity while trailing all day on a dirt track.I really enjoy watching them drive a track and work togather. I"d say from 1 to 4 dogs on the snow and as many as you want on the dirt.Works for me.

screw the snow. hunt the desert.

watch 10 dogs move a 2 day old track on the dirt......you'll figure it out...... instead of 20 min for one of your 4 dogs to find the lose it takes 2 min........... anything less than 2 days old and and 2 or 3 dogs will do the same as 10-20.

you won't stomp out a dirt track like a snow track, rocks and other things will hold the scent a long time. I've had 14 dogs pass by a spot and never open then the old anchor comes up and says hey dumbasses you missed him!

pros-freshen up tracks a lot sooner=catchin more lions= better dogs


cons-things can get a little western once its caught(10 dogs on a bluff is bad news) or in a hole especially if you're by yourself.

Mr.Leonard you and them nance dogs are the dirt gods of the shadetree, how many dogs do you run in the dry?

Dirt god ? Get out of here I am just a wanna be to a real dirt hunter. I love it and try but I have a hell of a long ways to go.But as long as a guy is having fun that is what it is all about.

As far as number of dogs that I hunt? I hunt em all and I throw the bird dog in there for excercise. LOL!

When hunting on snow for lions or even worse for bobcats you can knock a track plumb out if it is pretty cold with a bunch of fiddle footed sight trailing yappers. But if it is fresh they will generally flounder around there long enough to get in lined out and spook it up a tree. On the dirt they can't connect the dots so they have to work off their nose and they will either slow down and do it or quit.

If you have never watched a pretty good sized pack on dry ground leapfrogging and moving a colder track it is a thing of beauty. the pack becomes like a living unit swelling out in the loss picking it up and condencing back together as they move ahead. Pretty neat deal and also as our astute friend AZ Dogman said they can really shorten the loss times and keep the ball rolling .

Another reason I hunt a pretty large number of dogs in the desert mountains is this. Many times you find yourself in a maize of bluffs and boulders with no trees for a lion to climb. To stop a lion and hold it for any length of time many times takes a number of dogs.Not just to fight the lion but to surround and block off it's escape routes and to spot it sneaking or bailing out and shorten up the next bay up chase.If you have ever watched a sneaky old lion up in the rocks he will hold up long enough to get it's wind back and then start looking around for a place to get further from the hounds. Many times he will get on a shelf or a rock . he will bluff and booger the dogs he can see back and then turn and jump and slip out. Well a couple of dogs peeking around the rock may miss him for a good while when he goes and he may make a lot of distance on you. If you have other dogs slipping around from other angles usuyally some will spot him and send the alarm. He's hauling A$$ let's go!

Mike, great question but i have a different answer then the rest.

I think it has to do with how stupid and how frustrated you like to make yourself. "Along with how many dogs you are dumb enough to own in the first place"

I don't get out much so when i do i take all my dogs and a few of my buddies. If we are lucky enough to find a track, they all get turned out. "frustrating and stupid"

Now it doesn't matter if its snow and we are on wheelers and sleds or if we are on ponies and its dry. The stupidity has no end. We just turn them loose and hope for the best. I fugure they are better off runnin around then sittin on the chain. Heaven knows they've got that one down.

Never realized you guys actually thought about how many to turn loose and why. LOL

poser wrote:Mike, great question but i have a different answer then the rest.

I think it has to do with how stupid and how frustrated you like to make yourself. "Along with how many dogs you are dumb enough to own in the first place"

I don't get out much so when i do i take all my dogs and a few of my buddies. If we are lucky enough to find a track, they all get turned out. "frustrating and stupid"

Now it doesn't matter if its snow and we are on wheelers and sleds or if we are on ponies and its dry. The stupidity has no end. We just turn them loose and hope for the best. I fugure they are better off runnin around then sittin on the chain. Heaven knows they've got that one down.

Can I get an AMEN?

I believe I may have been overcomplicating this one.

Scott

poser wrote:Mike, great question but i have a different answer then the rest.

I think it has to do with how stupid and how frustrated you like to make yourself. "Along with how many dogs you are dumb enough to own in the first place"

I don't get out much so when i do i take all my dogs and a few of my buddies. If we are lucky enough to find a track, they all get turned out. "frustrating and stupid"

Now it doesn't matter if its snow and we are on wheelers and sleds or if we are on ponies and its dry. The stupidity has no end. We just turn them loose and hope for the best. I fugure they are better off runnin around then sittin on the chain. Heaven knows they've got that one down.

Never realized you guys actually thought about how many to turn loose and why. LOL

I was thinking of what to say and low and behold Poser sums it up. Thanks Poser!

He sure can bring things into perspective can't he?

poser wrote:Mike, great question but i have a different answer then the rest.

I think it has to do with how stupid and how frustrated you like to make yourself. "Along with how many dogs you are dumb enough to own in the first place"

I don't get out much so when i do i take all my dogs and a few of my buddies. If we are lucky enough to find a track, they all get turned out. "frustrating and stupid"

Now it doesn't matter if its snow and we are on wheelers and sleds or if we are on ponies and its dry. The stupidity has no end. We just turn them loose and hope for the best. I fugure they are better off runnin around then sittin on the chain. Heaven knows they've got that one down.

Never realized you guys actually thought about how many to turn loose and why. LOL

Yea, great response poser............

ike

poser wrote:Mike, great question but i have a different answer then the rest.

I think it has to do with how stupid and how frustrated you like to make yourself. "Along with how many dogs you are dumb enough to own in the first place"

I don't get out much so when i do i take all my dogs and a few of my buddies. If we are lucky enough to find a track, they all get turned out. "frustrating and stupid"

Now it doesn't matter if its snow and we are on wheelers and sleds or if we are on ponies and its dry. The stupidity has no end. We just turn them loose and hope for the best. I fugure they are better off runnin around then sittin on the chain. Heaven knows they've got that one down.

Never realized you guys actually thought about how many to turn loose and why. LOL

LOL! That's the truth. "Frustrated and stupid" about sums it up for me. Gotta love it to do much of it, there's no question.

If you do it how Poser described long enough, you can catch a lion and road all 15 hounds out on the wheelers, all the way back to the truck! Goodtimes buddy! LOL!

We decided to be like those fox hunters, the more the better.

Mike, I think everyone has had some good responses but you ask # of dogs (Ideal) to catch a lion and that is 1 to 2 finished hounds in snow conditions where I am located, not how many everyone like to hunt. later Andy

The question was "Ideal" # to catch a lion... My answer has to be: Whatever it takes to get the lion TREED! Sometimes the answer could be just one, or maybe two, sometimes more. (Usually only one or two tree it, no matter how many are "Along" anyways.)

I must have read the ? wrong, as I will turn loose what I have in the truck(Hunting alone), or with whatever my buddy, or buddies have along (Or the opposite lately, as I'm putting together a pack from the ground up, thank goodness for good buddies!) and "I deal" with it. LMAO!... can't teach them anything sitting on a chain or in the box... so I, DTFB!

If I was an Outfitter and HAD to catch, the answer might be totally different.(Or if I cared about proving something to someone.)

If you are training pups... the "I deal" # (IMO) is “ALL THAT WILL MAKE IT AND LEARN SOMETHING!"

Take care.

Mason

Mike Leonard wrote:Here is a question we have beat around before but I think it is an interesting study.

Why do many high mountain and cold weather snow type hunters many times use less dogs?

On the other hand why do many desert or high desert bare ground type hunters many times ran large packs of hound?


Any ideas on the pro and cons of each style?

I could have sworn the question was why do many desert or high desert bare ground hunters run large packs?
Maybe I can't read.