Number of dogs ideal to catch a lion.

[Mike Leonard]

Here is a question we have beat around before but I think it is an interesting study.

Why do many high mountain and cold weather snow type hunters many times use less dogs?

On the other hand why do many desert or high desert bare ground type hunters many times ran large packs of hound?


Any ideas on the pro and cons of each style?

[BuckNAze]

Is it because usually a dirt track seems to be older or harder to smell sometimes because of the lack of moisture? And is that something that the snow hunters arent lacking, seeing how they usually go out after a fresh snow, but if they were try to run an older track in the snow would they use more dogs? Those are just my thoughts on it. The more dogs you have on an older track the more noses you have looking for it and that way you can move the track faster. Im curious on this as well.

[Ike]

The quality of the nose, or level of cold trailing ability has little to do with how many dogs a guy needs or uses to run down lion, cause it only takes one single cold trailing hound to stop a lion. Mike is probably pointing to miles ran before the track is started not after, as lots of snow hunters don't dump a dog until they find a track, whereas a dry ground hunter has to find a track to run.

Hunting horseback as Mike does can result in dozens of miles of roading before the hounds strike a track, which puts a lot more miles on a hound before the hunt starts. Therefore, if a hunter chooses to hunt that way day after day he'll wear down his pack sooner and need more hounds. Example, if a snow hunter doesn't find tracks to run but two out of seven days then his dogs only ran two days. However, if those dogs are cast along side horses and only strike two tracks in seven days they still ran seven days........

I did a little of that with a guy ten or eleven years ago on bear and realize that a guy needs two or three packs of hounds if he's gonna hunt very many days or weeks back to back. Truth is, a guy needs a couple packs divided up if he's gonna guide lion or bear hunters cause something either happens to a hound or a guy looses them overnight and then doesn't have dogs for the next day. The problem with owning and hunting that many dogs is time and money--that is the time a guy has to invest in multiple packs to have hounds that produce and the cost to house and feed them.

With lions it isn't too bad cause three hounds will catch about anything, and then a guy only needs six or nine dogs to have plenty of coverage. Bear hunting is tougher cause pack size increases from three to five or six, therefore requiring ten to fifteen hounds. Riding horseback is a fun way to hunt lions or bears, but rigging dogs is what trips my trigger. In my opinion, driving along in silence and having that box blow up on a strike is as much fun as any of the rest of the hunt--that's what gives me the adrenaline rush!

I just finished hunting a father and son on bear that had owned and ran hounds for fifteen years. Most of their hunting was done on horseback for lions, and had not been done around a good pack of rig dogs. They both had a great time and want more of it, and were impressed to say the least. Hunting is hunting, and a guy gets use to what he does and where he does it. It can all be fun but a person should always keep their eyes open to other opportunities and not go around with blinders on.

ike

[AZDOGMAN]

I dont like alot of dogs on snow because if you are trying to train young hounds and you have to many dogs out, the track gets stomped out and all the young dogs learn is to chase the old dogs. If you run 6 dogs down a snow track the first two are trailing and the rest are following. If you run 1o dogs down a dirt track they are all trailing and learning something. So thats why i run less in the snow than in the dirt. One good dog will catch damn near as many as 5 or 6, but on a tough track in the dirt sometimes i wish i had 20 good dogs.

[Ike]

In the country I hunt, the southern slopes bare off either the same day or the next and therefore leave dogs trailing on open ground. Damn few days if any do I ever have a lion track that has snow from one end to the other, and therefore dogs may follow others down a running, fresh track. However, when they hit their first south facing slope which doesn't have any snow the dogs all do a lose and have to back up and dig for scent. And all of those dogs dig in and do just that, dig and scratch for scent. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't harder for a dog to run full out on a snow covered north slope and then have to change up and dig across those southern slopes--it's kinds like going from a hot bear race to a cold track.

ike

[sheimer]

I have no experience on dirt, and limited on snow so here is me feeble opinion. The guys that I hunt with all have a couple of dogs each, so we will turn out as many as 6 or seven on snow. Do we need that many? Well no, but all the dogs need the exercise and it's never bad to have a pup looking up at a cat, even if he really didn't put it there. Guys around here can put up just as many with a dog or two as anyone with a half dozen. I think in our area cats just don't require as much pressure from the dogs to be forced up a tree as in some other areas. That is possibly because of the lung size of the cats keeping them from being able to buck as much snow as the dogs can. There for a dog or two can pressure just as much in the snow as a pack can in the dirt. We also have a higher density of game animals compared to the desert so our cats aren't required to travel as far for food so a two day track will probably be even shorter than a one day track in lower density areas. Don't make any mistake, there are some toms that will still cover some ground in an evening, just not as common as in some other areas. So looking back at what Ike said, the dogs aren't required to cover as much ground in the snow as on dry ground for several reasons.

Scott

[Brindle]

from my experience all you need is one good dog on lions, and as many as you can get on bear.

[high desert hounds]

I agree totaly with AZDOGMAN there aint much scent left in a snow track when the dogs are leaving a swath 2 feet wide and 2 feet deep. And although I have little exsperience with dirt I would think a dirt track could get stomped out but not as fast and to stomp out every little track would be hard in the dirt.

[AZDOGMAN]

Sheimer, It doesnt make a pup any better by looking at a lion. If he didnt get a chance to smell a lion and trail it he is no better than the day before. I hate snow when it comes time to train pups. If i only hunted snow and was training young dogs i would hunt 2 good dogs and 2 pups and thats it. If not it will take way longer for a young dog to be able to catch its own lion even if it does make every tree.

[sheimer]

Azdogman, I respectfully agree to disagree.

Scott

[BuckNAze]

Havent had a chance to train pups in the snow but from what I hear its the best time to start some. As long as they're of age, meaning around 6 months or older. Depending on the pup

[Ike]

It only depending on when a pup gets old enough to keep up on whether they are started on lions or bears to me. And dirt or snow makes no difference, cause I load dogs year round and they have to hunt whatever conditions they find on the ground.

My five year old Kody and Griz dogs were started on bobcats, although they seldom get a chance to run one now. On their first hunts, I threw them down with two old dogs in fresh snow (groups of three) and to watch them bark and work the ground with the older dogs a guy would have thought they were naturals........

Other dogs came of age on lions and bears, and I've never had one of the bloodline that I hunt fail to go and stay at least to the ability I'd expect. But scent is scent, and on a crappy track the dogs do alot of losing and finding whether they are on old crusty snow or dirt. On those loses, each dog has the chance to find, further and restart the track's direction, and they all get scent....

ike

[AZDOGMAN]

Shiemer, All im saying is a dog has a hard time learning to trail a lion when there are 3 or 4 better, faster dogs in front plowing through the snow. You might make a better tree dog but he needs to learn to trail. Your best bet at that point is to tie dogs and let it jump and let them go on there own but its red hot and you get the same training with a mini lion in a live trap. I promise you a dog is better off trailing 10 lions and not catching them, in a situation that the pup smells the tracks and gets to trail, than they are looking at 10 lions in the tree on tracks that they had no chance to smell and trail. If you hunt the dirt you understand what im saying.


Im not saying that its not good training cuz if you hunt only the snow you want a dog to learn to run a snow track. I think a good snow dog runs mostly by sight once the dog smells that its a lion track. The key is fewer dogs on a snow track and a pup will catch on faster. At least till they get the idea, then they will be fighting to be in the front of the pack.

I hunted with a well known lion hunter around here and he runs like 10-15 dogs on lions in the snow. We made a lose and i circled it and found the track. I called for dogs and got to watch a couple good dogs trail up the track and a dozen dogs running down the track cheerleading and not doing anything. But it sure sounded impresive i guess.

[Mike Leonard]

Good stuff guys! Ike always appreciate your insight and expereince. Az and High Desert. Ha! You boys have had them shitty deals with a cold snow track and have it knocked out all over the place too Huh?. LOL! Boy it makes a guy feel like an idiot at times. Nice crisp snow track damn ain't that pretty.! Well it is cold and froze down and everybody turns a dog loose and before long you got dogs following dog tracks and you are gritting your teeth going if I would have only got Boomer and Sam out and let the rest set till this was all lined out we would have been at the tree taking photos. Happens all the time. Good stuff guys I am telling you !

Come on you desert dogs why so damn many mutts?

[sheimer]

Azdogman, I wouldn't ever think that a pup will learn to tree a lion by following dogs for no other reason than to just follow them. I was referring to a pup that has a fair ammount of the basics, just doesn't fully understand the whole game yet. It is fascinating to me to watch a young dog that is trying, but doesn't really know what he is trying for, to see a cat in a tree and you can just watch the lightbulb come on...and BAM he's got it. I guess it's the same as walking a pup to the first tree so they get the picture. To turn a pup out without letting him get the scent and trying to line it out himself first is just what you said, a wreck waiting to happen, and would do a pup no good at all.

I believe that your right about running by sight in the snow, sometimes. I have seen the dogs go to a track by sight, but never have I seen one open on it just from sight. They may use it to help, but I havn't seen one ran off of sight alone.

I also, on a side note, don't hunt with that many dogs very often and don't prefer it at all to just running one or two. I spent the last half of last season just trailing tracks with my older dog and a pup just getting started. I didn't catch one of the tracks I turned the pup out on, but she got many miles of good trailing experience. I believe that she will surpass my older dog once she sees one in a tree and the lightbulb comes on.

Scott