Runnin dogs???

[merlo_105]

Mark, You tell me... Never done it I would imagine just about the same out come minus the drive to get there faster... Who knows, Ask the dog Whisperer

[mark]

I thought i did. One thing i know for sure is when momma is in heat and i run her everybody packs to her!

[Tim Pittman]

Just speaking for myself. Most/all of us initially speak from personal experiences and opinions/views based on what WE have witnessed. I [probably like others] try and go and see other areas and packs of dogs/hunters in those areas, to see what else is possible[if anything]. I've been impressed,disapointed, and also walked away going yep its the same there or they have what I have. I always try to pick something up from somebody when they have something positive to offer. Running dog crosses are what I've been able to get to experience most. The one thing I've noticed is most every bobcat hunter has a little to a lot of this style of dog in his pack. Basically all for the same reasons- track style, conformation/toughness, and track style [oops, just kidding]. Yes I'm a fan of them, but not blinded to there being faults in any dog running/treeing/retrieving/guarding etc.etc.etc. And can honestly say I'm not color blind, I have another Bluetick pup from Brandon Maxwell/ Van Johnson now ,that 8 months old would probably please/impress anybody open minded enough to appreciate a good dog for that age. Also just got a 3 month dry ground/southwest bred redtick looking pup from New Mexico I'm excited to train. Here's the common thing these 2 young dogs' ancestors are noted to have- track style like a running dog, with noses to boot. Like has been stated plenty, every tree bred dog today mostly has some running/fox hound in it, the big question/problem is there enough left in the blood to have the desired track style/smarts left in them to obtain the style wanted. Which could be either end of the spectrum due to conditions/topography and culture.

[merlo_105]

Mark, I would imagine soo. For the whisperer Comment your a funny guy. Not once have I ever made myself out to know it all. I spend time with my dogs and other people's dogs. My dogs listen and know what they need to do. Thats it. Hounds are simple creature's people are not most people would catch more game if they knew what kind of dog they had or needed or what dog they needed to get rid of. Simple fact... Some are just cull's some cull's are what some people need to catch more cat. What I know is what I know if I dont know I will state an opinion thats it...

Tim your right on.

[Tim Pittman]

I will post a recent example; [Mark is easy going, and a very hospitable guy]. We got together awhile back, as I wanted to look at a male dog of his to breed to my Suzie dog[ I've been looking at different males. I'll keep this condensed--- Suzie comes from along line of catdogs that Al and many other fine local hound men have contributed too. As a general rule of thumb,well rounded truck to tree dogs who may exceed higher in any one or many parts of the track. Suzie has always been a good strike dog and locate tree dog[ in the back of my mind wasn't expecting her to be matched]. We load up get going and guess what ol' Earl [part running dog from the peninsula up north] out struck her the first round and was just ahead or equivalent the rest of the day. Wow, based on what I've seen in the past and visiting with the men who've raised and hunted many generations of them dogs,wasn't expecting this but was happy. To many details to list on the in between, but when we heard it end,they were all together and treed and his other dog was a kemp bitch with a lot of running dog in her. Earls track style is the same as Suzie= tight, this is what I like for lead dogs to posess, stay close to it and keeping the push without over running mouth. But conformation is like the perfect idea of a dog and could sure clean up her build. Anyway in my mind, the right running dogs bring a lot to the table for our game/terrain!

[al baldwin]

Tim hope you don/t mind, but want to say Suzie was sired by Zip Frendrich/s BJ male who my friend tom H. hunted many times with and told me numerous times was one hell of a cat dog. He said others better be paying close attention or BJ would drift out on them and it was a one dog race from there on. BJ WAS VERY BALANCED & GAVE LOTS OF MOUTH. He was line bred Fendrich dog. Tracing back several generation to Zip/s ole Jake dog whom I hunted with and Jake was a special hound that I would have loved to own. Think Zip bought Jake from Bob Payne as a youngster, believe Bob had got that blood from Elmer Blankenship. I had a son off Jake years ago ( nice hound, knew how to run a cat) and recall Elmer had used a female from Spring Creek Rock & Dohoney/s Cadicallic that was up close in Jakes pedigree.
Suzie/s Dame was a good hound called Ann also owned by Zip, Ann was sired by the excellent reproducing Buck dog owned by Dave Walker. Ann/s dame was a female called Paige, who came from the cross I made between Skinner & Cody. The Buck x Paige cross was made more than once & produced pups that were sought after.
Will go on a limb & tell you that close track style & tighter mouth came from Ann. Most I ever saw from BJ/S side was very open, super athletic hounds with a ton of hustle & track drive. Believe, Paige put that style in Suzie & she got it from cody, Skinner was a wound up ball of fire in his prime also, giving more mouth than you may have liked. Cody was also very open but a close track dog, with not near the hustle of the other side.
You can thank Kevin Humpries & Rick Jones for making those Buck x Paige crosses. Robin Powell/s Hunter hound has a big influence on Suzie has he will show up on both sides. Others who contribute are Vaugh Beck he made the cross that produced Buck. Zip/s Hounds also up close in buck/s dame. Buck/s sire was a registered finley river, owned by Vaugh Beck. There are so many other local hunters who contributed to the gene pool could not name them all. But thanks to each! Best stop, sorry for rambling, hope this makes sense, from memory as I type. If any is incorrect please correct me Robin. Al

[mike martell]

Tim

Pretty well sorts the fly shit from the pepper when a man is willing to put them up together and let them speak for themselves....

Mike

[mike martell]

[quote="al baldwin"] Elmer had used a female from Spring Creek Rock & Dohoney/s Cadicallic that was up close in Jakes pedigree.

If memory serves me correct, the man behind these dogs lived in the Coos Bay area, Pete Payne, and if so, I seen them on several bear back in the late 70's and early 80's. Back in those days, I would have culled a good bobcat dog if it didn't bay a bear!....Registered coon hounds like so many crossed into the running dogs...Now if David would chime in, if I remember correctly some of his old Oregon blood had Spring Creek rock & Dohoney's Cadillac in the pedigrees. This blood was what jarred me away from Plotts years ago...

Glad to see this topic back on track...I like following the true discussion about the origin of these West coast dogs and the men behind them, not to mention the original topic, running dogs.......When you have some historians get on here and go back several decades starts to connect the dots and makes for fun reading.
Mike

[dwalton]

Al I think we need to talk if you want to do it on here OK. First thing I am not sure what you mean about wanting to help me out. I bred to your old dog because it was the only Grand son alive of Pee Wees, line breeding. I lost the litter because another dog killed the pups no one got a pup. I have train bobcat from pups or near pups several times without the help of an old dog or anyone else without making excuses for the dogs or myself. As far as blueticks I tell the way it is for me, I don't like them, most not all you have to drive a stake into the ground to see if they have move on a cold the track any. I have said on here each to their own, if you like it and it catches game hunt it. It has been brought to my attention that I might have a big ego, I could care less it seems that I have stepped on a few egos by saying what I think. I am one of the few people that catch a lot of bobcats that gets on here and tells the way it is [ there is a lot of miss information on here about bobcat dogs and hunting] because no one will believe them when they say what can really be done with a cat dog. AS far as help if and when I am having trouble with catching bobcats or dogs I call the best in that field that understands dogs, bobcats and what it takes to catch them. AS far as honesty I did not realize there was a shady deal. As far as Retiring Pepper I quit hunting her because she got behind and slowed my young dogs up. She was one of the best strike and cold trailing dogs I have every owned. She just needed a running dog to show her how to run. If anyones main dog is over 8 you had better be getting some more young ones or you will be out of dogs soon. What is the old sayings a liar thinks everyone lies, a thief thinks everyone steals, one that does not catch bobcat thinks no one can. Can't A guy voice his opinion without upsetting people. I think it is time for this post to die before someone gets their feelings hurt. Al BJ went back on three sides to Pee Wee.
A lot of the treeing walkers in south western Oregon go back to Sadie[a pup from PeeWee] and Banjo cross made by Doug Brooks. Banjo came from Bill Dwyer and Dave Peightal. Dewey

[bluedog4]

Great thread here gentleman, I'm really enjoying all the wisdom! Dewey don't let Al bring you down with all his bad talk about you and his opinion about you! Even if you blow smoke up his old butt it won't make no difference he will still try to twist what ever you say to his way of thinking.
I bet old Al was a heck of a Houndsman, breeder and bobcat catching fool in his day and he knows all the good old boys, you know the humble ones who could care less about Internet hunting, but I bet he sure fills there ears and cuts you down to them every time he can!
It makes him feel good
Bluedog

[david]

Elmer had used a female from Spring Creek Rock & Dohoney/s Cadicallic that was up close in Jakes pedigree.

...Now if David would chime in, if I remember correctly some of his old Oregon blood had Spring Creek rock & Dohoney's Cadillac in the pedigrees. This blood was what jarred me away from Plotts years ago...

Mike

Mike, you have a great memory and a good mind. Banjo's mom was out of Spring Creek Rock and Dahoney's Cadillac.

I know that if I see a great dog, I dont so much want to breed to him, as I want to go back to what made him and get some more. I am wondering if that is what happened here when someone ended up with a Spring Creek Rock by Dahoneys Cadallac female. Because who ever got that female went to great lengths to get her and knew exactly what he wanted and hunted her down and paid very dearly. He would not have seen an advertisement on the dog, and likely had to get her when she was "not for sale".

I finally had a chance to read this thread. Carey told me about it many weeks ago, but I just could not get up enough courage to read it. I mean, it is like reading a book or something. If I can stop working long enough to read, I pretty much fall asleep in minutes. So I took a long nap, made some coffee, and put in on the track.

It was fun to read, and fun to learn about the people on here a little deeper. I do lament with Mike that we can not talk face to face, although, groups of people make me nervous. Probably because I used to be a pastor and it starts feeling like church. Church groups make me nervous too. You would think the whiskey might break up that church image, but then it just reminds me of communion.

I dont know. I think I am feeling something very profound here and maybe if I keep saying stupid stuff it will surface.

I doubt it.

I am trying to figure out if anyone learned anything about dogs on this thread. I am not sure it is about dogs so much as about people... Which is fine with me, I think people can be very interesting. Would like to spend time with each person here, as long as it wasn't a big group.

There are so many interesting dynamics here I could not possibly comment on all of them, but here is one that caused me to think back on my life:

Throughout my life I have been extremely blessed to have spent time with some very knowledgeable hunters and dog men. One of the first was hated by the hounding community. I mean he would walk in, and you could just feel the room get tense. I realized that I was suspect for spending time with him, and I spent about a year with him, until I moved too far away. The man was extremely knowledgeable and held back no knowledge from me. He gave me a strong foundation for hound hunting and I will be forever indebted to him for it.

But if I had built my opinion of him on what others had said, I would have missed out on one of the richest experiences of my life. If I had been unable to look past his social in-ability, I would have never found the treasure.

It was not the first time something like that had happened to me, nor the last. And I will say that some of my deepest richest gifts of knowledge and understanding have come from folks who do not know how, or are not willing to play the social games that groups require for acceptance. Their "likeability factor" was off the charts low. And in most cases, it was because they were not willing to lie. They just told the truth and groups of people really can not handle that kind of honesty. I don't know how we got here, but we are taught never to be honest about ourselves unless it is something negative. And we are taught never to be honest about someone else unless it is something positive. If you break these rules, you will not be very well liked. Or popular society does not allow it. You MUST hide the truth if you want to be well liked and accepted.

And honestly, I have never known a good bobcat hunter that was truly humble in and of himself. I have known some who learned how to control their self-adulation. I have seen those whose self praise was very sophisticated. I mean people so smart all they had to do was take key talkers with them hunting, and they never had to speak a word about their own greatness. And they knew consciously or sub-consciously that the words are even more powerful coming from some one else s mouth and not their own. But the desired results were the same, and even more effective than some one who plainly speaks the truth about himself. Because the one is thought great and humble, and the other who is equally great is just thought arrogant. It is the difference between social skills (manipulation) or the lack of social skills (often abrasive, naked truth).

Which one is actually the most skilled at self-promotion? Which one cares the most what other people think about him?

Let me just say this: if you are a successful bobcat hunter, you are a great man in deeper ways than even you have imagined. That is the truth. I think all successful bobcat hunters know they have achieved a certain level of greatness. And it is greatness that goes way beyond just being able to catch bobcats. It is greatness that speaks of a bottom end so deep you could probably accomplish about anything you really felt motivated to accomplish. But if you speak that truth you will not be well liked. If you care about what others think of you, you will need to be dishonest about yourself in front of people who dont know you or love you. Or you will need to be quiet, which is tragic also.

I myself feel greatly blessed by those people on here who have been willing to share their knowledge with me and hundreds of other readers. I see people who are very skilled socially, and know how to work a crowd. But I see many who have none of those skills, yet they have great knowledge and understanding and are willing to try and share it. When I see them speak the plain, unfiltered truth about themselves or their dogs, I cringe and brace myself and feel bad for them, because they are going to get blasted. I dont know why they keep coming back for more. I would not. But I am glad they do.

I miss Ike also.

If you are basing your opinion about someone on their social skills, or based on what others have said to you about them, I am sorry about that. You have missed out on some tremendous opportunities in life, guaranteed.

Thinking back the accomplished bobcat hunters I have known, they have been loners for the most part. They don't really know how to fit in with people, because they are not very often with people. Back in the day, I could rarely ever get even one of them to talk openly with me. Today it is a remarkable miracle that several of them come to this board and try to share openly. It is a remarkable mystery to me. I love it. It is a good time to be alive.

[merlo_105]

David, That was DEEP... Next time I hope you can tell us your views and opinion's on the topic. By the way good book.

[david]

Merlo, I dont know how old you are or what you look like, but you make me smile and even laugh a lot. Seems like you are my kid brother and you just need me to beat you up a few more times ahahah. Then I will just go on feeling proud of you and wondering what you will do in life, but knowing it will be good.

[merlo_105]

I dont wanna get beat up.

[david]

As if I could. LOLOL