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I think most people that have made a comment on this post will agree that scent drags are used to start pups. It is very hard to duplicate the real thing from out of a bottle. I believe Mikes Leonard’s scent training method to be a sound way of starting pups and it is far better than dragging a canvas bag around covered in some bottled snake oil. Scent drags are used everyday around this country at field trials. Hounds do run them and tree at the end of the trail. Granted, some of those hounds are nothing but field trial dogs, but some very good usable hounds are entered and compete very well. In my opinion, and you can take it for what it’s worth as I myself don’t use scent drags, it’s not because I think their worthless, I just don’t need them because I have a well broke pack of hounds to start pups with. Scent drags can be a very useful starting aid for that hunter that does not have a finished pack of hounds or friends that have a pack of solid broke hounds that he/she can hunt their pup with. To get that pup to the next level, you have to put them on the real thing and not just one or two a year, but several so I can say that if I was just staring out, I would use everything afforded to me to make that pup I had become the best dog it’s it could be! Becoming a hound or a houndsmen does not happen over night they are made over time.

Sourdough

Catman wrote: I own one right now that is 5 yrs old and has never to my knowledge run off game, and has definately had lots of opportunities on very bad tracks, and is actually my lead dog. I know that sure as shootin when a person says something like this he/she is asking for trouble the next time out

I know what you mean, cause that Ike dog of mine will be eleven years old next month and a guy can't hardly chase him down a track that isn't lion or bear, as he just never has had any interest in deer or elk. And that dog has been nothing less than solid gold in my opinion from the first lion track he hit, just a natural in every way and one of the best hounds that I've ever had the pleasure of hunting behind. To watch him rig on lion and bear has been one of my greatest pleasures in hunting........gotta love it!

And he learned to hunt on natural scent not piss drags.......

ike

Actually Ike none of the dogs I have now have been down a drag, but I have used it in the past. But contrary to your statement.... I didn't use piss drags....I actually used gland scent from the glands of bobcat, bear, and lion.
Congrats on your Ike dog....eleven years old and completly what you like. See that was my point

Yea it must have a little to do with the breeding as well cause that Choco dog out him is the same way, just goes crazy when he hits a lion or bear whether on the ground, on the box or in the box. Matter fact I've never seen a dog beat him to the rig on lions, not even his old man Ike. There is probably as much to be said about good breeding as there is to be said about good trainers.........and neither of them have never had any gland scent just the real deal.

ike

I sure agree with the good breeding, and cool that you have never used scent. Like I said before.....to each his/her own
Sorry I ruffled your feathers for not agreeing with your statement. Go ahead on with this post I'll keep my opinions to myself

Disagreeing has never ruffled my feathers catman cause stating opinions about hounds, training or hunting is what these boards are about. People only cross the line when they make personal attacks rather than sound arguments about the issue.

Catman has brought up a good point by implying if dogs are breed right they are natural and need very little training; Mike Leonard has made the same type comments.....

Mike Leonard wrote:Oh by the way I have seen some of our S. W. Nance pups who have been worked on the cat training method properly catch the first dry ground lion track in the wild they encounter so it can't be all bad, but then again I wouldn't say these are average pups.

So my question is why do some of us bother with cat training methods? Better yet why would Mike Leonard (or anybody else) bother with cat training methods if those Nance dogs are "not average pups?" Why don't we just all buy well breed hounds? My point is the man behind the dog is as important as the blood they came from in my opinion.....

In my opinion, a well bred hound that is trained with finished, trash broke hounds will become all he/she can be on track and trash free; however, a well bred hound thrown in with a bunch of trashy hounds doesn't have much of a chance of becoming more than the stuff he's running with. Bottom line is the trainer is as responsible for the outcome as is the breeder.

ike

[quote="In my opinion, a well bred hound that is trained with finished, trash broke hounds will become all he/she can be on track and trash free; however, a well bred hound thrown in with a bunch of trashy hounds doesn't have much of a chance of becoming more than the stuff he's running with. Bottom line is the trainer is as responsible for the outcome as is the breeder."[/quote]

There is 100% truth behind that but it is the same in horses. There are a few blood lines out there that fit my style better then others, and not knowing anything about dog blood lines, I think as someone that is starting out you need to try different lines until you find the one that fits your style, country that your hunting and most of all the game that you are hunting. I bet I can take one of those pups from mike and make him cringe but I will think I am doing great things with it .
PRW

Powder River Walker wrote: There are a few blood lines out there that fit my style better then others, and not knowing anything about dog blood lines, I think as someone that is starting out you need to try different lines until you find the one that fits your style, country that your hunting and most of all the game that you are hunting.
PRW

We've seen lots of guys on here looking for the silver bullet, that is the dog that will get them catching game. Every now and then someone will pipe up and say, "find a guy in your area that is catching alot of game and buy dogs from him if you can." Their point in saying that is those dogs are already successful in the area and getting it done, so why chase dreams of a magic hound from another state? A hound that is probably hunting in different conditions and out of it's element.....

ike

Ike,
When I want a "silver bullet" I g to the fridge and grab a coors light . I have found that there are alot of good dogs out there. being new i am buying on the confermation of the dog, that is out of proven stock, I like a big stout dog. I don't worry about the "natural trainers" to much. If I don't make a few mistakes how can I learn? I see my hounds like a team, I am the coach but in my pack I need a camptain. And anyone can make talent look good but those that know how to get the most out of something with less talent but alot of hart is a real coach (trainer).
PRW

Powder River Walker wrote:When I want a "silver bullet" I go to the fridge and grab a coors light .

I'm fresh out - Can you spare a couple?

Ike wrote:So my question is why do some of us bother with cat training methods

The ONLY reason I do, is because I can't seem to breed a hound pup that can run with the veterans at 3-5 months old and keep up. I do not want them to just end up trailing the big dog's scent in trying to do so. I think we all know, that the majority of the time when we turn out on a lion, we can not predict the length of the race. What better way to create a me too hound than turn it out on a 7 mile race with the big dogs at 4 months old and have it fall behind and end up running dog scent to keep up? I also do not want to watch them grow like a weed until they are big enough to keep up. It is just like early childhood development in humans. The more you work with a young child before it goes to school, the better that child will do in school in the long run.

It works for me and it gives my young pups a head start.

Also, there is a PHD level research paper, on scenting ability and development of maximum potential, that clearly proves that the age of 3-5 months is the formative period of maximum scenting ABILITY in a hound. If a trainer misses that period, It is highy unlikely that pup will ever attain it's maximum scenting potential. This study was done using unlimited goverment resources for search and rescue dogs and drug dogs.

Early childhood developement and early puppy developement. I saw parallel's there and in the end result. Oh well, to each his own...

liontracker wrote: Also, there is a PHD level research paper, on scenting ability and development of maximum potential, that clearly proves that the age of 3-5 months is the formative period of maximum scenting ABILITY in a hound. If a trainer misses that period, It is highy unlikely that pup will ever attain it's maximum scenting potential. This study was done using unlimited goverment resources for search and rescue dogs and drug dogs.

If that is true then many of my more recent dogs have been cut short, as they have not been hunted until they are about six months of age. If any of that research has a solid foundation I guess my dogs will be less than others. However, to my defense I'll point to my Ike and Choco dogs rigging hundreds of lions off of and in the box when many of the southwestern guys have told me that isn't possible. Just imagine what those two old red dogs would have done if they had been started at three months rather than six????????

ike

Starting animals i.e. horses,dogs,hounds is something that is going to be up in the air for years to come. I will say this, you can not take and train all hounds or horses at the same speed some will be able to take correction better then others and/or mature faster.
PRW