Riggin Lion

[mike martell]

Guys,

Here in Western Oregon we don't get much snow if any unless we drive higher up and as we grow older become more resistant to doing.....Last Sunday I hunted in Central Oregon and we have had little snow and none where I was hunting....You either rig or walk hunt or road your dogs if you want to hunt....Rigged a bobcat in the rain and caught it....Hunt with the conditions or stay home....

Houndem....
It will only get better the longer you rig the more you will ask why the heck didn't I do this sooner....

Good luck to all guys trying to rig game....Keep putting them up and down until you and the dogs figure it out,if you are like me you aint real bright in the first place or you would have picked any other hobby than hounds....

[LarryBeggs]

You would be surprised how much gas you might save on those days you have to drive a few hundred miles to see a track in good snow. As long as it is not to cold to have the dogs on the box you are better off having them up . A lot of times a cat will walk a tire track, the top of a cut bank above the road, along the shoulder of the road etc..In fact these are usualy where a cat would prefer to travel. You will miss almost 50% of the tracks if you are just waiting to see there track cross the road. True there are sometimes hot tracks they will miss on the rig or in the road.But there are more cold tracks that are runable that they will hit. That otherwise would get missed. There are nights when the scent seems to be hanging low to the ground and the dogs are not striking any thing that I will put them in the road and get a track going. But usually I am roading cat crossings that I found by the dogs striking them from the box on a night with better striking conditions. I have seen dogs that will strike every pile of cat crap they come across and get down and eat it like candy wich is a pain in the but.But like mark said at least you have your dogs on the ground in a cat crossing and sometimes they will get a track going off these. I dont doubt that scenting conditions in other country might make it more difficult . Bad scenting conditions on the oregon coast make it more difficult to.But why wouldnt a guy want to hunt in a way that he can cover ground faster than roading them.And more thoroughly than just driveing down the road looking for tracks.

[coastrangecathunting]

im sure others have done this. i have had dogs rig a track that was made before it snowed.the cat walked sometime during the night . it started snowing at 5 am or so. along i come around 7am and the dogs strike off the rig. i let them down and they start trailing up the road, sticking there noses in the snow. trailed up the road a couple hundred yrds and left trailing and jumped the cat about 45 min later.

jc

[coastrangecathunting]

i have also had dogs rig tracks that were frozen. u could pick the track up and hold it in your hand. i will try to video the dogs this week rigging a cat .

jc

[LarryBeggs]

I have seen them strike those frozen tracks to. I have also seen the same dogs that struck them miss a hot track.I think what a lot of guys are having a hard time grasping is it is not the amount of scent that is there. Sure more scent is better but even an old track that the dogs cant run leaves enough scent to strike. It is just a matter of weather the scent is getting from the ground to the dogs nose .

[slowandeasy]

Edited Quote Houndnem: I was barely able to rig a bear at the time and because of that something told me that it couldn't be done.


It takes a big person to understand and admit publicly that one may have been wrong. There is no stoping ya now Jared. You've been doing well, but now you have opened up that mind. I enjoy seeing that little guy hunting!


Take care, Willie

[iinvno1]

Ok fellas, I live in northwest Mt. Not sayin that it is less or more cold over here, however.... I have tried this subject for quite awhile now with little or no sucess. Now again as Ian said maybe I have crappy dogs or maybe I'm doin somethin wrong. I still wonder why more people over here dont have better luck riggin bobbers and lions. I can only guess that this country doesnt have the same humidity and temps barometric pressure and whatever else plays into riggin as other places. I read of a gentlemen on here last fall or so talkin about tryin to rig cats consistantly and came up short.Also in Montana. So again I cant hardly believe that in the whole state of montana there isn't one dog good enough to consistantly strike bobs or lions for that matter. So I ask this once again are you fellas sure that different areas are not better than others for riggin???? Fine some of you live in the high plains or desert or it gets cold just as cold as it does here one thing though. ITS NOT HERE!! I ask any one of ya'll to come over and rig bobcats or lions consistantly. Not sayin it cant be done but man am I havin a hard time putting my mind around it. I have been doin this awhile now and have tried and tried riggin for cats. Bears fine so the dogs will strike but no luck in winter on cats. I have spoke to folks on the coast who do it but I again agree with Ian there is alot more cats over there. I dont know folks still think there is somethin up with the northwest and riggin for cats consistantly. Ok fellas, just thought of somethin. A buddy of mine picked up a couple dogs that were from oregon this last winter or so. The fella that he got him from was a friend and rigged for bobs over there with great sucess. One of them had been catchin cats for him for quite some time. I'm gonna go grab that dog here one of these days and just see how he does. If he strikes consistantly thats what I will report if not I will report that too. I think that is fair enough.

[cobalt]

I think part of the issue here is; in order to have good rig dogs on any game species, they must be raised to be rig dogs. You just don't go out and rig cats with any good cat dog. They need to be rig dogs first, cat dogs next or simultaniously.
Cold nosed dogs don't necessarily mean they're good rig dogs.
Some strains of dogs seem to be more inclined to rig, but I have found nice rig dogs in many strains.

Houndnem- I think it was very big of you to eat some crow on the rigging thing. Whether it is worth while spending time doing it in some parts of the country or not is difinitely debatable, but it is another tool in the toolbox and there is a definite rush when a few dogs blow up behind you and scare the crap out of you.You end up living for it. Good luck!

iinvno1- no offense to you, but I don't think the weather in Mt. is very unique in comparison to other places that have similar conditions, that's just not rational to me. Now if you lived in Antartica or Mars, I would be more hesitant. Rigging isn't something you just go out and do with a top cat dog, it needs to be a "rig dog". I was lucky and got to witness rigging a long time ago, and once you do it, you become a student of it and the more receptive you are of it, the better the rig dog you will make (or more importantly, RECOGNIZE). I also think it is rational that you question it and are skeptical because it makes for some great discussion. Debate is where some good learning happens. I have learned a lot from posts like this and I think it is unwise for others to refer these topics to previously hashed out threads. They are common questions and they need to be mulled over somewhat frequently jmo.

[imchestnut]

For anyone who thinks the weather and conditions aren’t different in different places...I guess it all depends on what you qualify as different and how dumb your really are. I can't believe this is even a debate....But...lucky enough the ACTUAL data is easy to pull. Here are some samples. I would say...10 degrees is significant.

Challis, Idaho http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?id1663
Prineville, Oregon http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?or6883
Boise, Idaho http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?id1022
Ellensburg, Washington http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?wa2505
Bozeman, Montana http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?mt1044
Salem, Oregon http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?or7500
Hardware Ranch, Utah http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?ut3671
Craig, Colorado http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co1932

Let’s look at January (most western cat seasons go Dec – March that I am familiar with) and compare Hardware Ranch, Utah to Prineville, Oregon. Hardware Ranch shows an average low of 5 degrees and an average high of 35 degrees while Prineville shows an average low of 23 degrees and an average high of 43 degrees. So…not only is it A LOT warmer (almost twenty degrees at night) there is also a much smaller temperature swing (ten degrees) in Prineville, Oregon than it is in Hardware Ranch. You can tell yourself your conditions are the same, but anyone who actually thinks that amazes me. This doesn’t take into account differences in other things like humidity…

My point is, if your living in Bozeman, Montana and you can hunt bobcat Dec-March….you will have dogs up on the rig in an average temperature of 15 degrees in the morning (not counting the wind chill of the wind and driving). You would look like an idiot and I will bet you a lot of money you won’t strike 100 bobcats (you have 120 days if you hunted everyday). Oh and if you hunted ever day in those months, the morning temperature would be well below 0 degrees for about 15 days without wind chill.

Anyone still think that’s the same?

I would also venture a guess that the cat population (which relies on the deer population and to a lesser extent elk) is probably VASTLY different when you actually look. Deer density is much lower in most parts of Montana than in most of Utah. But, as usual, most people just want to puff their chest and say stupid stuff instead of actually looking.

So, I hunt Kilgore, Idaho quite a bit. The average morning (minimum temperature) is 4 degrees in December, 1.9 in January, 5 in February, and 8 in March. Oh, and it will be below -10 for thirty days in the season. Come strike me a bobber. I would love to see it.

Not to mention, it does take a lot of practice, turnouts, catches, strikes and days in the field to make a rig dog…plus you have to have strikable tracks to actually practice on and run.

Is it POSSIBLE to strike a cat? You bet. Does success doing it depend where you are hunting, the seasons, the conditions, the roads, the number of cats…your damn right it does. Anyone who thinks otherwise, really I can’t help you.

[diego25Jaramillo]

Since we are on the subject of rigging lions, i have a question for the people intentionally go out trying to rig lions. Do you think your success at rigging happens more on colder mornings(below freezing temps) or during the day/evening when the scent,i think rises high enough for the dogs to pick up? The reason I ask is because I have rigged a couple cats but most of mine have been done in the early afternoon or late evening. Now i just started the whole dry ground hunting thing and have had some success but the ones i have had success on are where I am putting a lot of miles on my boots by hiking. I know it can be done but i am just wondering what time of day most of you have your success at.

Diego

[catdogs]

I too was a naysayer, but the more I am around rig dogs and rigging, the more intriguing it is. I thought most guys riggin lions were just rigging lions, not tracks. I also couldnt figure out out why a lot of good bear rig dogs that I know werent rigging lions. Lastly, I have had dogs that will rig bear and coon, yet I could park on fresh lion track and not get a peep. Well last spring when it starting getting warm, we started playing with rigging lions and dam if we didnt rig and catch 3.... One was a over a 3 mile race, so it wasnt the cat we rigged.

I think the scent like larry beggs said, has to get to the dogs. How and why that happens varies with a number of reasons.....that I cant explain. I know when we had the best luck, it was over 30 degrees.

Secondly, I think alot of those good bear riggin dogs that I knew, maybe were in fact rigging cats, and that a decent cat strike may sound like a poor bear strike? Anyway, I will say that I will eat a little crow. I still dont think it is a real effective way to hunt, but it does work. I cant seem to do it very consistantly, but I have done it.... maybe get better at it, maybe not, but it sure is fun.

[slowandeasy]

Quote Cobalt:I was lucky and got to witness rigging a long time ago, and once you do it, you become a student of it and the more receptive you are of it, the better the rig dog you will make (or more importantly, RECOGNIZE).

Throughout, all that was written on this topic. I believe the above quote is one of the most important. But within that quote these words(OR MORE IMPORTANTLY,RECOGNIZE). You see, I believe this goes back to the fact that there are probably just as many good dog men as there are good hounds. There for the vast majority will never RECOGNIZE! Quick tip. If I have to explain to you about hearing what your dogs are saying or body language. And have to explain what RECOGNIZE actually means. You are probably on your way to knowing the same thing when you quit hunting as when you started.

You see, putting these dogs down in the timber is really no different than having a job. Some people work at a job for 40 years and are never any better when they give them their gold watch. Then the day they walked in for their job interview. I would like to enlighten all, in the hound world. This scenario is 100 times more prevalent in this sport. Because after a few outings. Most seem to know it all and saddle their dogs with an enormous ego, right up untill they retire from th sport. The ones that don't believe this are probably in that 80 or 90%that has been spoken of in the past threads.

Take care, Willie

[Unreal_tk]

Curiously thinking here, do you think because of trainer related habits is why dogs don't strike cats? Why not go about teaching a young dog to strike cats before you let it move on to other game? Use a cage trap in states that its legal, and start off using real bobcats as a setup to teach a young one. I believe most of us train dogs by letting the old ones teach the young ones, and not do any other training. Once he's rigging the cat itself, use a towel in the trap for a few days. Use the towel to make a small drag and progress more and more. Now this is just a theory I have not done it, but I've often thought about trying it. Any thoughts?

[iinvno1]

Ian, I agree with ya. I cant help but think that ALL weather variations have a impact on riggin cats. I know that your pationate about hunting and put the time in that it takes to have some fine hounds, with that said, how bout we use the term discussion instead of debate. I have found that a closed mind learns nothing. Seems like your gettin a little hot under the collar. I dont think the person or people that make the assumption that our weather variations don't have an impact on riggin are dumb just maybe igorant to our climate. I have hunted in a couple states. These states dont promote consistant riggin for bobbers. Idaho and mt. At least not in the areas that I have hunted. Now Ian lives quite a ways from me but has similar weather patterns. He has established that there is quite a bit of variation of temp and humidity. There are also many other variables not getting mentioned which have a def impact on riggin. I agree with another comment made that these "discussions" are good for all unless you are close minded. In saying that I ask once again but worded a bit different. Fellas with the information given, do you still think that riggin bobbers is equal in all places and is def possible to do consistantly and worthwhile in all places? If your answer is yes again I invite you to montana. I live right in the middle of prime lion and bobcat country. Less than one minute from hunting and have treed cats literally in my back yard. The population is healthy. I also agree with the fact that you can have a good lion dog and not a good strike dog. However I run some pretty open mouthed dogs. They love cats more than bear. So... I cant help but say if they smelled a cat they would bark. I know they do in the summer however we're talkin winter now. Its a totally different time of year. I just think that some places just dont provide the weather for "riggability." Now I have access to that strike dog from oregon. I will let ya'll know in a week or so how it works out. One problem I have is do you folks always turn your hounds into doggiecicles? Man this mornin it was about 18 degrees. So... how do you rig them when its cold? Just by lettin em stick there heads out? Well thats another variation gets them even closer to the ground. All things need to be apples to apples. I wish I had the cash to take my dogs to oregon or wash or places similar to see if they struck better over there. I have hunted with dogs from washington in Id and really didnt notice much of a difference. I mean they are all built the same as far as structure. I think dogs perceive smells different that is the difference in cold and hot nosed dogs. All things need to be equal and all things need to be done the same in order to make a real live study. So if ya'll are just strikin from in the box it needs to be explained that way. Pickin up what Im sayin?

[walker83]

My first experience with dogs was in central Oregon, I went out hunting bobbers with a friend and we rigged a couple that morning and caught two. I've hunted with him several times since and watched his dogs rig and catch several bobcats, they are dang good at it. that being said I don't believe that it can be done in the cold dry that we have in Utah with any sort of consistency like in the more humid climates. I have seen it done a few times in Utah and most were rigging scratches and only a few of them have turned into a moveable race and tree. I think the biggest issue is that guys take it personal when some one says that its possible in Oregon but not here, that somehow by saying that we are saying their dog isn't as good as ours. In reality their cat dog is incredible, it makes the most out of the conditions and is a great dog, they aren't easy to come by and takes a talented hunter to help one develop.

I think two real things make a difference in rigging CATs.
1- conditions, I think science alone would point to the fact that scent molecules do different things in different conditions.
2-density, I have never, ever hunted in Oregon and not cut or rigged runnable tracks. I can easily go 3-5 hunts in Utah and not find a single runnable track.

You northwest guys have some advantages over us but that dang sure doesn't make you less of a houndsmen or make your dogs not as good as ours, its just different.