Bobcat Jump Style

[scottb]

Duane, the 2 they stretched were longer jumps lots of shuck and jive stuff. 1 ran out of gas and was caught from behind, the other just made a mistake in the brush and hit a dead end. Saw both catches. The big one that tore up the 2 dogs I don't know what happened, when I got there they were backed off baying, apparently couldn't handle a bigger tom.
My cure for people who call or ask to shoot a lion is as follows if I forget to say no... tell them to go find a mature tom track with no wolves around in an open district or take them without sleds and hunt on foot. Quick and easy cure I have found.
Also, I don't think my dogs perform their best with other dogs and if they run with others a couple times in a row it seems to take another couple runs for them to get their act back together in terms of hunting as a team (honoring, packing up, etc.)

[merlo_105]

Why dont you guys think more Bobcats are caught on the ground? Do you think its caliber of dog or what? I have always thought in areas like that cats would be more readily to tree and easier to catch. All they can do there is go up. Also why would a dog that ran 30' off a jumped track do better then a dog that didn't get more then a few feet off a jumped track?

[mark]

Maybe the dog was 30 feet in front of the track and waiting for the cat to get to the tree??????? Just an uneducated guess though.

[dhostetler]

Scott, Yes, I know I am to much of a nice guy and get myself sucked into these lion hunts. The idea of getting them to find there own tracks sucks to, you end up looking at a lot of wolf and lynx tracks.

Merlo, I don't just don't know the answer to that about cats seldom being caught on the ground in Montana. In my opinion a drifting dog is running air scent, a cat making a couple jags in the track loses critical distance when a head up drifting dog just blows through it. I guess 2' or 30' probably doesn't make a difference as long as they are in the scent stream.

[dhostetler]

Maybe the dog was 30 feet in front of the track and waiting for the cat to get to the tree??????? Just an uneducated guess though.

Haha That is about as good as explaining a false tree as the dogs beating the cat to the tree. I always assumed the 30' off the track meant that the dogs weren't very close to the cat.

[twist]

Here is my thought on bobcat not getting caught on the ground in areas where I hunt is for the most part fairly open country ( pine and fur timber with not much vegatation on ground) which makes for less area for cats to think they can hide on the ground and be safe. We have coulees full of cedars but under pressure the cat gets ran out and heads to timber. This pretty much takes care of everything east of the montana continental divide. Andy

[merlo_105]

I was just curious I try to keep 50/50 wide drifting hard casting dogs and tight to the track dogs. Interesting in everyones view points

[merlo_105]

Thats exactly what i figured Andy

[scottb]

Andy, do you have many cats go to ground? Have a buddy who used to guide deer/antelope out in R7 he had a couple hound guys he worked with say they had lots of cats hole and lost dogs in small holes where they couldn't turn around or whatever the case.
My stickiest, track straddling cold trailer runs/drifts the widest on jumps. Scratch my head on this often. Has caught several on her own but usually takes a bit longer. My 2 faster cold trailers will get off the cold track more to move it faster I assume but run tighter on a jump. They have been finishing cats quicker. Maybe a dog knows or figures out the edge of the scent column and runs the inside (closer to track/cat) or outside (wide)??

[david]

Why dont you guys think more Bobcats are caught on the ground? Do you think its caliber of dog or what?

Florida, Texas, Minnesota, are places I have hunted where most of the cats caught were caught on the ground. All these places had hundreds of trees.

I think it is a genetic trait in these cats to tend toward not climbing.

These places all need dogs that will catch on the ground. They are different from Andy's or Duane's dogs. I believe there are genes that keep a dog from catching a coon on the ground. It is the same genes that keep that same dog from catching a bobcat on the ground. You might think a bobcat can out run a dog for a mile when the cat is breaking trail in the snow, and the dog can see the cat. I don't think so. Neither can a coon out run that hound. But the coon is never caught on the ground.

In my opinion, the dogs with genes for not catching will not catch. Dogs who don't have those genes, or they are not dominant as in mixed breeds, will catch when the skill level and opportunity come together.

In the areas where cats will rarely tree, cat hunters find dogs that will catch.

In areas where cats will always tree if properly pressed, there will never be a felt need to find develop and breed dogs that will catch.

In areas where cat hunting is merely a distraction while waiting for bear season, and the dogs cannot catch, and the cats will not tree, they do not develop dogs for the cats. The dogs have been developed for bear. Instead, they develop their hunting skill to match wits with the non-Treeing cat.

We adapt and adjust according to the need and go no further.

[twist]

Scott been lucky on only a few cats backed up in rock croppings or piles none in holes east where your talking is wide open in a lot of places and only safety is in a hole.. David I have had a hand full of dogs from west coast here that catch on ground there and not here for what ever the reason be its a mystry to me. Andy

[mark]

I hunted cats a lot of years and never caught one on the ground. Heard stories about guys that did but had never seen it with my dogs. The stories i heard about were all of guys that just hunted bobcats and i ran all tree game with my dogs. FWD to 1994 and Oregon's ban on bear and lion with dogs and other problems that fall on a lot of hounds men i made the decision to sell out. A few years went by and i decided to get back into dogs and went with straight cat bred dogs from straight cat hunters and a few dogs from a varmint hunter. 3 years ago i ran a tally and 18% of the cats caught were on the ground. Caught not holed. Is it the cats or the dogs that made the difference?

[dhostetler]

David,

I too take exception, my dogs have no problem with stretching a lion 5x bigger than your average bobcat.

[pegleg]

I'm going to side with David a little on catching. Its like pointers or stockdogs its hunting instinct frozen at a specific point. Some dogs can't resist grabbing anything. Others nip when its in their favor. Some will only dive in when another hound is screaming. Of course there's exceptions but averages tell. I've watched dogs work themselves into a frenzy inches from something and never bite. Then I've seen some pretty mild acting dogs who you know are going to grab it the first chance they get. And the amount of tree seems to correlate to lack of bite. And it kinda makes sense if its chopping it can't have a mouth full. Then there's dogs that tree out of frustration. If I was a fur hunter I'd be more picky about hounds who don't grab a cat. All it takes is two dogs with a lot of bite to rip a cat out of his pants. And as far as lions go I don't really like those dogs either. Most of the time they can reach our lions if they really want and you'll notice your whole pack will need more stitches or staples on average then with out those dogs. And your more likely to push them out of the bayup or tree if a dogs really chewing on one. I had a fox terrier once and while he learned not to grab a cat alone he would the second a hound was close enough to help. There was very few times he didn't catch a runner and each one was nearly worthless . so yep he helped numbers . there's a happy point for each of us I guess.

[dhostetler]

There all kinds of pictures on the internet of dogs baying lions. Our lions around here pretty much never bay up. When a lion does get caught on the ground my dogs are pretty much suicidal. I have had 2 dogs killed by lions. The same dogs I bay bears with without injury. My dogs have no problem tearing into a winged bobcat

So my question is why in Montana & Idaho out of 300+ lions I have treed I never had a real lion bayup? I have treed some really mean lions though, biting off branches etc, and rushing up and down the tree. I also never caught a bobcat on the ground. I just think our cats are just pre - disposed to tree. Obviously bobcats have been caught on the ground as Scot did it.