How far will a lion travel???

[Brent Sinclair]

Brent,
I agree and also think lions scavenge a lot more than is believed from what I have seen over the years. Mike Leonard posted a topic “What are your thought on this” this was a study on whether or not lion take the weak and the sick over healthy animals. My thoughts on the subject are just that, based on what I have seen, a lion will go through the same motions with something they come upon as they do with something they kill and a GPS collar can tell you that they are on a kill, but they can’t tell whether or not they killed it. I also believe once a lion sizes something up and is successful at taking it without injury they will not hesitate in taking that prey animal again if the opportunity presents it’s self regardless of size. Deer may be their primary prey, but nothing is off the list, from the smallest North American mammals to the largest. Thanks Brent for you willingness to share.

sourdough

So far 4 of the 7 lions we have collared have done more scavenging than I would have thought.
Is this because the study we are doing is in ranchland and on the fringe areas where landowners loose stock and haul them off the feed yard to let the coyotes and birds clean them up, or is it natural for lions to scavenge and we are just now beginning to get data to prove this with the collars that allow these GSP cluster points to be found so easly and identified...
One young tom we collared stayed on a dead cow for 22 days not venturing more than a 100 yds!!!!
Lions will kill what ever they can that presents the best opportunity...we have found beaver to bighorns....
I have found healthy strong elk and deer as well as bull elk and buck deer down in condition from the rut killed by lions..I think this is more that they are alone and more valnurable.
In a herd with 6-20 or more animals and several sets of eyes it makes it more difficult for a lion to get within a good enough distance to try for a kill without being seen, yet it still happens as I have found elk killed and you can see the whole story in the snow..
A client and I once watched a lion make a run at a cow elk, she was in a herd of about 30 animals, we had an arrow in a bull and were watching the herd to see where he bedded.
The lion was within a few feet of catching the cow but did not, it was something I'll remember for along time.
I hope when this study is complete the data gathered will be published and available to anyone interested in lions and lion habits.

[Tom White]

Thats very interesting Brent . Thanks for sharing . I really enjoy learning more actual facts about lion habits and comparing that with some of the oldtimers beliefs.

[Azlongears]

I like the old theory of the lions making the same loop every 10-14 days......The GPS collars show this clearly isn't true.

[Eric Muff]

It's gonna be cool to see data collected over a longer period Brent.
The last study I helped out on we had 3 nice Toms collared for about 12 months.
These Toms were all in the 150lb plus range so big fellas.
They each had a home basin like Jackson's Valley or something similar in size and they would hold tight there save for 2 or 3 trips outside that area in the year of the study.
They would loop out even as far as west of the highrock range into BC and then straight back into that hole again.
Some of those loops could have been in excess of 75 miles or so.
Interestingly nobody ever talked about recapturing those big fellas over the study period which is interesting since those loops covered very accessible territory that was hunted frequently.
Each time the cats made their loops they travelled an almost identical route.

[BLACK RHINO]

Believe you will find that in any predator their selection is A opportunistic approach. Any cat species sneaks to A kill range. Most canines cruise the country till they happen on A opportunity they can utilize, and pursue it further. Selection of prey is based on where they live. And their personal, or group ability to be successful. They will live anywhere that they get A zone big enough that they can hunt effectively with A tolerable limit of outside pressure. Outside pressure being... Lack of cover, Competition from other predators, Human interaction, Prey density, And the wild card of their own personal preference. Anything I have forgotten please correct me. As has been stated before, There are many different range sizes and patterns for any predator. And in this these studies can become suspect when management turns to A cookie cutter method. The ranges and patterns of A predator in A mountainous region are no doubt different then those of A predator that lives in the fringe popularized regions. Also different would be the rate of reproduction in any of the groups between the ends of the scales. The exceptions can not be used to manage the norms. Just because it has happened does not mean it happens consistently. And very few government agencies managing the wildlife have the funds to be effective at their job of management. So they do rely on independent studies that anyone should look at and read the purpose of the study in relation to what in particular it is based on, before buying into the theology. Simple facts, No government agency has a effective way of calculating the population of any predator. Simplistic approach is their basis. More human interactions=more then they want. They use the independent studies to justify any management program. How are they changing cougar management in Alberta. Cause many females live in the border white zone. They produce litters more then more isolated areas. Thus there are more human interactions. When these young and old cats have their opportunities limited. This is A "Problem that needs solving." Not by educating the public that if you want to live where the wildlife is on your doorstep, you are going to have the wildlife on your doorstep. But by trying to create the narrowest of buffers so that the wildlife is there but just not on the lawn. The end result is A decimation program for any predator in the fringe zones. And the suspect studies gain precedence for the rest of the management areas based on A very small window. Reality of the situation is some are better then others. This will never change. Brent. I have only one question. What is the thesis of the study you are involved in?

Rhino.

[Brent Sinclair]

I like the old theory of the lions making the same loop every 10-14 days......The GPS collars show this clearly isn't true.

azlongears
Don't flush that thoery down the toilet too soon, we are finding alot of regulatory patterns as well as total dispursal with both adult and sub adult male /female lions.
One big tom has returned to within 1/2 a mile of where he was 16 days earlier and killed a beaver, stayed for two days and moved to where he was 3 weeks ago!!!
A subadule female dissapeared for 6 weeks...came back to the SAME area within 1/2 a mile of where she was collared and made a kill...and your right as well with the GPS collars showing some of what we thought was solid information is not...I guess that is what makes it all a challange and woth the time to find out...

[Brent Sinclair]

It's gonna be cool to see data collected over a longer period Brent.
The last study I helped out on we had 3 nice Toms collared for about 12 months.
These Toms were all in the 150lb plus range so big fellas.
They each had a home basin like Jackson's Valley or something similar in size and they would hold tight there save for 2 or 3 trips outside that area in the year of the study.
They would loop out even as far as west of the highrock range into BC and then straight back into that hole again.
Some of those loops could have been in excess of 75 miles or so.
Interestingly nobody ever talked about recapturing those big fellas over the study period which is interesting since those loops covered very accessible territory that was hunted frequently.
Each time the cats made their loops they travelled an almost identical route.

Eric
We are finding alot of the same in these lions as they did with the cats in the previous study, as well as some major movement with lions that have not yet returned, with the study just getting underway we need time to get solid data.
I caught one of those collared toms way south of Shell Plant .... caught him again on the Adinak a week later...not real far but a fair distance in a short time.
At this time it is difficult to put any solid facts in place as far as movement and patterns go, over the next 2 yrs I hope to see something that gives us a bigger picture than the last data collected in this area...
Prey is the main focus on this study, Elk is the key prey animal they are looking to collect data on.
How many of those toms were killed and collars returned?

[Brent Sinclair]

Believe you will find that in any predator their selection is A opportunistic approach. Any cat species sneaks to A kill range. Most canines cruise the country till they happen on A opportunity they can utilize, and pursue it further. Selection of prey is based on where they live. And their personal, or group ability to be successful. They will live anywhere that they get A zone big enough that they can hunt effectively with A tolerable limit of outside pressure. Outside pressure being... Lack of cover, Competition from other predators, Human interaction, Prey density, And the wild card of their own personal preference. Anything I have forgotten please correct me. As has been stated before, There are many different range sizes and patterns for any predator. And in this these studies can become suspect when management turns to A cookie cutter method. The ranges and patterns of A predator in A mountainous region are no doubt different then those of A predator that lives in the fringe popularized regions. Also different would be the rate of reproduction in any of the groups between the ends of the scales. The exceptions can not be used to manage the norms. Just because it has happened does not mean it happens consistently. And very few government agencies managing the wildlife have the funds to be effective at their job of management. So they do rely on independent studies that anyone should look at and read the purpose of the study in relation to what in particular it is based on, before buying into the theology. Simple facts, No government agency has a effective way of calculating the population of any predator. Simplistic approach is their basis. More human interactions=more then they want. They use the independent studies to justify any management program. How are they changing cougar management in Alberta. Cause many females live in the border white zone. They produce litters more then more isolated areas. Thus there are more human interactions. When these young and old cats have their opportunities limited. This is A "Problem that needs solving." Not by educating the public that if you want to live where the wildlife is on your doorstep, you are going to have the wildlife on your doorstep. But by trying to create the narrowest of buffers so that the wildlife is there but just not on the lawn. The end result is A decimation program for any predator in the fringe zones. And the suspect studies gain precedence for the rest of the management areas based on A very small window. Reality of the situation is some are better then others. This will never change. Brent. I have only one question. What is the thesis of the study you are involved in?

Rhino.

Rhino
Your Hired...we need you up here!!!
You made some very crediable comments and if it is ok with you I would like to quote you on these at the next meeting we have with our G&F Dept.

There is a concern we have to many lions in and around the fringe areas that are beginning to become a safety issue as well as problem with predation on domestic stock..
Mike Leonard hit the nail on the head,,,,kill a female and your adding to your problem....

In a nut shell SRD wants more lions killed to appease the public and reduce costs to the department of dealing with complaints.

I hope we can come up with a management plan that works for everyone and not just to kill more lions.

The thesis....it will be based mainly on movement...how far lions travel ...over what time periods do they move ...hunting pattern movements...terrain they move through and or occupy more than other...will they hunt a specific area, make a kill, then travel to another know area and hunt there, moving from A to B in a short time??
Alot still needs to be worked out on this, I am just the guy that has a hound to help tree a lion but I find it all very interesting and am learning alot in the process.

[Brady Davis]

Mike Leonard said it very well....the more we study lions, the more we find out just how little we realy know about them...well put Mike...

...Story of my life! But, man they are sure fun to chase, regardless of how far they go!

[Brent Sinclair]

The one thing I've figured out about lions is ...they are unpredictable...
Someone once said , If you want to see some country follow a pack of lion hounds and you'll see it inside out.... Elliott Baker I think, or maybe Mike Leonard!!!!!

[Mike Leonard]

Brent,

I remember years ago I was struggling with my lion hunting. I had been hunting and covering country my whole life and i thought I was pretty savvy about the outdoors but when I really focused on lion hunting I found out there was just a whole lot of places I was over looking. As I said my dogs to start with were pretty weak when it came to catching lions on anything but a good snow so I had to do a lot of tracking and following myself back then. Good greif I found out quick that 2 miles as the crow flies a lion can make 5 or 6 miles or more out of it. Up this bluff, walk the rim rock, drop back off walk under the bluff back to the top across a saddle down under that bluuf. back up to the rim rock circle the point drop off . I mean make you dizz y at times and what the lion takes in stride is a major obstacle for a human. I figured out right quick if i was going to catch very many lion on anything but good snow I was going to have to get some dogs that could take over the bulk of the trailing and climbing for me, because one lion can make a heap of tracks! LOL!

I finally sort of got a pack put together with hard work and investment and it certainly made life easier but still you cover a lot of country trailing lions. I remember i was out and run into some guys I use to hunt with a bit and they had two hounds on a leash and they were walking out a track. Actually there was a little snow on the ground so they could see it pretty good and they were moving right along. I asked them why don't you turn them dogs loose? they said well they really can't smell it too good yet and we are afraid they might good up and go run a deer or and elk. I said Oh not broke well that's reasonable but how long do you think it is going to take you to warm it up to where they will stay on it? they said never know on these but we have guys in trucks circling with radios so they can come pick us up. I said well that's good because you may be a dang long way from where you started. they said you want to take some dogs and walk it out with us. I said no thanks I will just move on. good luck to you.

Well by golly they went on and jumped the lion and got him but even though it was only a mile or so as the crow flies from where I talked to them it was dark thirty by the time they got out of there. so like you said them boys saw an awful lot of new country I am sure.

[Eric Muff]

In reality those boys you talked to were hunting the way most folks in these parts used to hunt,in fact there are some that still do.
Once you cross the bridge into understanding that you can and should let your dogs do the work Mike you burn the bridge behind you,there is no turning back.
Education costs whether it's time or money or both,just wish I could have learned some lessons earlier!
Some never will.

[Brian Chorney]

You got that right Eric!

[BLACK RHINO]

Brent I am up here. But hiring me is not A easy prospect, lol. Brian talked me into joining the ATHA at one point. Not sure alot of good has come of it though. The biggest thing I have learned from being A outfitter and A part of the ATHA.. Is that the depths of division based on semi false information has divided the houndsmen in our province so deep that there is little use in putting them in the same room. The problems of the extremes in management are particularly present in this group. And the SRD is not going to do anything that will make anyone happy. The only reason that the system that they are wanting to implement again worked before was that the few of us houndsmen that were running then used it to our advantage. I truly doubt that the quality of houndsmen that are running here now can use that system effectively. It is A sad thing but it is at least being honest about it. The real sad thing in this is that I can see the SRD putting lion tags on A draw. This does A few things for them. Gives them greater control of where lions are harvested. Eliminates the need for A daily call in system. And essentially eliminates the resident houndsmen. Lions will never be managed in the same manner as other game species. Due to the incredible cost of maintaining A pack of dogs that can hunt them effectively. If you would care to talk to me then see my info below. Is A very expansive subject. But will set and talk bout it with anyone that wants to hear my opinion.

Ryan "Rhino" Andersen
Buck Creek Outfitters
1-780-202-1767