Pure Camerons as Dryground Lion Hounds?

[Ike]

Glad to hear Benny is off on an adventure Mike, and maybe he'll have some tales for us on his return. Hal is an educated man as well, or so I'm told, and I'm sure he was looking at something he liked in one of those dogs of larry's. Maybe my age is starting to show or or I'm just getting lazy is why I didn't jump on that deal Mike, but if I lived out of town and had room for more dogs I most likely would have taken one. Larry has earned his way and crossing the stream with one of his hounds could only be a good thing.

rzhounds telephoned me this past weekend while he and Hal were on the way down to San Juan to chase bear. It sounded like they were both in separate trucks and so I asked why not drive down together. Now that was a stupid question looking back on it, as rz explained Hal had too many dogs to hunt to get them in his truck. I'll bet they loaded up twenty or thirty dogs, and will most likely run the legs off every hound in camp this week. Hal drew the summer bear pursuit permit and has had to irrigate and had lots of trouble not being in bear camp.......but it sounds like that has changed for now.

ike

[liontracker]

All I know is this makes for some really good reading!!!

Dan D

Yes it does and I just had to ask.

[cobalt]

What registered breed of hound is consistantly (high percentage) a dry ground lion dog?
If someone answers this "Nance bred walker", I will defend the Cameron dog's nose because all I've ever seen and heard of are hotter nosed Nance dogs with a very few exceptions. And they are touted as SW lion hounds. I don't think they are bad dogs at all, but if we're going to start hypotheticalizing, lets shapen our measuring stick.
I personally think the mixed dogs are a more likely dry ground dog because that has been the practice in the SW for a long time. Registered dogs aren't a priority in most of the breeding programs in the SW as far as I can see, so while I think the ability exists in most breeds of reg. hounds, because of different focuses in breeding programs, dry ground noses or styles are less likely to surface. There are only so many traits one can work on in any breeding program. I'd bet if I had pure Cameron stock and lived in the SW, in a matter of years (maybe 25yrs.), I could selectively breed dogs that would have more of a propensity to be SW dry ground lion dogs.

[liontracker]

I'd bet if I had pure Cameron stock and lived in the SW, in a matter of years (maybe 25yrs.), I could selectively breed dogs that would have more of a propensity to be SW dry ground lion dogs.

This is precisely what I was thinking and why I asked.

[Bo D]

All it takes is time and money guys...

[Mike Leonard]

Cobalt,

I certainly agree with you on the matter of fact that many more grade cross dogs are used by TRUE dry ground lion hunters than registered. I have no idea what strain of Nance dogs you have seen (the hotter nosed as you said). Most assuredly there are some out there and I would wonder why anybody would choose a Nance bred walker if he wanted hot nosed dogs because you have the entire modern coon hunting world of treeing walkers to choose from that will produce a much higher consistancy of hot nosed dogs. One must remember the Nance dogs are the original meaning first ever registered treeing walkers that were developed from grade dog crosses. I will not set and say they are the cat's meow for dry ground lion hunting because there are just not enough well bred ones out there and in the hands of real dry ground lion hunters.l I will say one of the most famous dry ground lion hunting families have used registered treeing walkers almost exclusively for their lion hunting since 1960 and that is the Glenn's of Arizona. Their orginal dogs carried a high percentage of Nance's Little Topper blood. I doubt that anyone will ever match the catch record these folks have in the most inhospitable country you can imagine right on the border. So yes there are some registered dogs making it happen and quite a number of the SW Nance Reg. dogs have found their way into packs of bare ground lion hunters over the past few years and the success sounds very favorable. Are they going to replace the old strain? I doubt it but if you will check the bloodlines of some of the best old strain lion hounds like those of Jeff Allen you will see their foundation was heaviliy influenced by Nance walkers many years ago. Jeff and many others have tried numerous strains of registered hounds including a ton of Cameron dogs. Call him up some day when you have some time and get the take of a dry ground hunting legend of today.


Time and money are both scarce commodities in the world we live today so I would advise rather than starting on a science project you stack your odds on the house that is already holding the right cards and then place your bet and go hunting.

[liontracker]

WOW! there are some true nuggets popping up in these posts.

It seems their are some pure Camerons that can do this type of work, but not in great numbers and it would appear that no one has developed a program that will consistantly produce this type of dog. It would also seem that the old addage, "if it aint broke, don't fix it", combined with all the years, hard work and sacrifice put into these current, best dryground strain grade dogs, is the determining factor here.

Yep, the old time and money thing....

We are very lucky that a few men have dedicated their life to this type of hound and will share them.

[hunt14]

Is the Cameron discussion over yet? I dont want to ruin this post or distract from it if its not but after reading Cobalts post I wanted to broaden the question a little and hear how many registered dogs are making top dry ground hounds. I personally dont care to hear about the new registered pup that hung in there and took the track away from ol pokey and treed the lion after he has worked his guts out for the last few hours to heat the track up. Those kind of dogs arent that hard to find. I am curious to hear about the registered dogs that will consistently strike an old track and catch from start to finish on dry ground.

Sorry Liontracker should I start a new post?

[liontracker]

Sorry Liontracker should I start a new post?

No, I think all this goes hand-in-hand.
Anybody know a registered strain of any color that will consistantly produce this kind of hound?

[hunt14]

I know of a few registered dogs that have been good but nothing consistent. Stan Mecham had a Hickory Nut Harry male (not Stylish Hickory Nut Harry) that was tops from strike to tree on bare ground he also spoke highly of a few of the gold creek mundo dogs that he said could start and catch on some tough tracks.

I know that Phil Taylor use to have some registered red dogs that seemed to produce more consistently for this type of hunting. Any other registered dogs STARTING and FINISHING these old dry tracks?

[pegleg]

I don't have enough money to answer that question completely or time either. I have had some english bred dogs that got it done well and didn't have to many faults. the problem was when i went to get replacements there weren't any I could find bred the same. I found some bred close that didn't do well at all. I have hunted camerons that did ok to. the main problem with camerons is this. a thousand dollar pup needs to turn out performing the job you require a higher percent of the time then a 200 dollar or less pup. before you bring up time spent training and feed cost etc. lets remember 800 dollars buys a lot of supplies even today. if a litter of pups has thirty percent pups turn out capable of catching game it is reasonable to suspect that selecting those pups that are performing at the top and selecting them for specific traits and concentrate them to the highest degree possible and test the hell out of that offspring to see if it meets the level expected. I assume that cameron hounds have been selected in this way and therefore are now solid examples of their potential. if they aren't doing the job you require then it is reasonable to suspect you would actually have better luck using different bloodlines that are more mixed but also show that same percentage or higher of pups that perform the job. .......02

[cobalt]

pegleg-So you think if Del gave his pups away there would be more cold nosed Camerons in the SW? And, I agree with you that some of the reg. English dogs are a good bet to do the job in the SW.

Mike- I won't question your knowledge of the history of this stuff, and I agree there are pure strains of walkers that do the job, but they are as rare as with any of the other reg. breeds. Are Jeff Allen's old strain of dogs pure walker? And if not can you give full credit of the cold nose to the walker side? Also, it seems I read that the Lee Bros. were actively trading dogs back and forth with Elbert Vaughn's blueticks of the same blood as Del Cameron.
You made an excellent comment when you stated " there are just not enough well bred ones" and I interpret that as meaning there aren't enough good breeders of Nance dogs being finished in the SW. I think that goes for all hounds. It's all about environment. I know of a few guys who run Nance bred dogs because of their grit, not their nose. How come the Allen old blood is better at dry ground than the new reg. stuff. And why?

[liontracker]

It might have more than a little to do with that, for lack of a better word, "awesome" black Meachum Bred Bloodhound bitch.

[cougarhound]

i have never been dry ground lion hunting, nor do i want to, i watched el gato 2, just not my cup o tea, my hats off to those that do this kind of hunting, our season starts when the snow falls, i myself love the tracks in the snow,dry gound seems to be hard as there are most times no tracks, i like to see the track in the snow and most times follow my dogs on the chase. happy hunting :0)

[Mike Leonard]

If you will study your bluetick history a little bit you will see that Ernest Lee the eldest of the Lee Brothers was on the advisory board with Elbert Vaughn,and several other huge names in the breed when it was broke away from the English Coonhound breed. I am sure they had some Vaughn dogs I know they had some smokey river dogs we know they had sugarcreeks and even bought a female Sugar Creek from Del Cameron when he owned the line before he let it go to pot and sold the entire Sugar Creek Kennel name and all to Lyonel Charles of Missouri for $1500. Del then went to walkers and plotts for a bit and then got back into the Vaughn Blue Jack, Sebastian, and Towaco bred blue dogs that had been long established before he ever bred his first pair.


If you don't think the old line walkers were the main influence in Jeff's old dogs why don't you take a couple of good Cameron blueticks or Duncan black and Tans by there and see if you can trade them for one of his Nance bred walker pups. LOL!


Sorry I couldn't resist, but knowing Jeff as long as I have I can see that big toothy grin on that big old rawboned Kanaber. LOL!