Lions in the South

[lmorgan]

Here is a hypothetical question. I've been seeing more and more reports over the last couple of years about "panthers" making a comeback in the south. I had a buddy who treed a panther about five years ago in the Big Thicket in far east Texas while coon hunting. I recently read several articles about lions becoming almost common place in west Texas along the border. I know for a fact of a lion being killed a few years ago in the Texas Hill Country. I saw with my own eyes a lion dead on the highway in southern Kansas. A magazine article a year or so ago talked about the reintroduction of the panther to western Arkansas from offspring of Florida panthers (which were reintroduced to Florida from some captured in Texas and interbred with the few that remained in the Everglades). Just last week I had a family friend capture a grown panther on a game camera in West Feliciana Parish, LA, just 40 or 50 miles west of me. The same day, I heard of a man in Alabama who claims that a lion was killed on the highway there and there have been other sightings as well.

We know that once upon a time, the southern Panther was pretty common, but as late as a 100 years ago they were believed to be extinct in much of the south. Here's my question (and it IS hypothetical), what if the population of big cats in the south started to experience the boom that seems to be going on in other parts of the country? I would assume that our topography and population would make it all but impossible to hunt them? What would be the options to keep the population in check?

[Big N' Blue]

IMO Highways and deer hunters. It would be almost impossible to hunt them on purpose and if one is caught with hounds, it would just be by chance and luck. IMO

[R.M.]

I would assume that our topography and population would make it all but impossible to hunt them?

Why would your topography and population make it impossible to hunt them? Thanks.

[Emily]

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ ... ng%20Forum

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 4306d.html

http://easterncougar.org/CougarNews/?p=2388

these sources (circular references) all claim a confirmed sighting in Panola County TX

[lmorgan]

IMO Highways and deer hunters. It would be almost impossible to hunt them on purpose and if one is caught with hounds, it would just be by chance and luck. IMO

David, that's where my train of thought was headed. You're the expert, but I'd think that maybe some of the national forest land would be big enough to get something accomplished, but it would be piecemeal at best. Mt. Lion hunting didn't originate west of the Mississippi, so theoretically, I guess it's possible. Just not likely. I was reading something yesterday about one of the Lee Bros. trips to hunt the Florida panther, so we know it was possible in the past.

I would assume that our topography and population would make it all but impossible to hunt them?

Why would your topography and population make it impossible to hunt them? Thanks.

Basically just what Big N Blue just mentioned. We don't have the large tracts of land like the western states do anymore. Our land is plagued with urban encroachment, highways and suburban sprawl. Our woods are disappearing and hunting with hounds is getting strangled out. When I said topography, I was thinking of the highways and subdivisions and how they've changed the landscape.

[guy54]

I would like to think that if lions made a come back in the south that someone would figure out a way to hunt them. I have a friend in up state New York who hunts coyotes with hounds very much the same way we hunt lion in most parts of the west. They will go out after a fresh snow and look for tracks. Put the dogs on the tracks (this is where it gets different than lion hunting as a lion will tree where coyotes dont) and usually bay them up in a brush pile or shoot them when they cross the road. He has mentioned that several people in his area have claimed to have sighted lion. He also finds it strange that with all the coyote hunters driving the roads they have never cut a lion track. There is no doubt that lions are moving back into areas that they have not been in a long time, but one has to wonder how many of the sightings are legitament. I also have a cousin in Okahoma who is a big time coon hunter and he has told me that the lion is making a come back in Oklahoma, yet when I asked him how many were being treed while coon hunting he didn't know of any. I have had more than one old time lion hunter tell me that if a dog will run coon they will run a lion, yet none are being treed while coon hunting or at least not many are talking about it if they are treeing some. I am sure that an ocassional lion travels around and gets into these parts, but I would think that more of them would be treed if all these sightings were real. There are a lot coon hunters out there and believe me they would be talking if they walked up to a tree and shined a lion in it instead of a coon. However if they do make a come back in the south and eastern parts of the U.S. they would not be that hard to tree and the houndsmen would figure a way to get it done.

[Emily]

Guy54, as someone who hunts bear and coon in NY, and trees an occasional bobcat and frequent feral housecats, I am pretty sure my hounds would follow a lion trail if they crossed one, and are capable of treeing a lion if they did. I don't think we have any lions in NY yet, although I know a few reputable people that claim to have had fleeting glimpses of one.
The coyote hunters in this state tend to be in different habitat than lions are most likely to show up in. Most of the hound hunters after coyote are in flatter, more open territory where there are roads and farmland, more in the western part of the state. The most likely habitat is the more mountainous (hills by western standards!) areas in the Catskills and Adirondacks, the areas where we have plenty of black bears. These areas don't have much in the way of roads, are thick with second growth forest, and we don't bear hunt by looking for tracks in the snow because its not legal to chase bears with hounds in winter when the bears are largely hibernating anyway. The academic studies show that there's plenty of good lion habitat in NY and nearby PA, so that if they do show up, they are likely to thrive.

[lmorgan]

IMO Highways and deer hunters. It would be almost impossible to hunt them on purpose and if one is caught with hounds, it would just be by chance and luck. IMO

David, let me revise my original reply to you. I've slept on it and now I have to seriously disagree that the deer hunters are going to keep the lion population in the south in check (hypothetically of course). Here's why: considering that both you and I probably have a similar demographic of deer hunters, you can probably relate. Of the deer hunters I know, most come from suburban areas. They spend $500-$1500 a year to be on a lease of maybe 1500-3000 acres of mostly cutover land or young pines with 25 other deer hunters. They spend $20,000 to build some type of camp to stay in on the weekends during deer season. Another $30,000 for a 4x4 pickup to drive to the camp in. In the bed is a $10,000 4x4 ATV. They have a brand new tractor complete with bush hog, disc and front end loader to plow their 1/2 acre food plot under their enclosed and insulated deer stand. They have 3 or 4 automatic corn feeders spitting out steroid laced crack cocaine for deer and game cameras on every tree. They have an entire wardrobe of camouflage clothing, boots, trucks, boats, and deer stands that would make a Green Beret jealous. They ride through the woods on their camouflage ATV wearing doe urine pads on their boots and they took a bath in chemicals to kill the scent of the human who was just spitting out carbon monoxide and is now sitting in the deer stand texting his wife and girlfriend. He waits patiently with either his new fiber optic scoped cross bow, his kevlar plated titanium muzzle loader, or his new elephant gun with the night vision scope and the built in GPS.

And when you ask him how many deer he killed this season, he says "a spike, a four point and a doe."

Nope, I don't think the lion are going to be kept in check by our deer hunters here.

[lmorgan]

I would like to think that if lions made a come back in the south that someone would figure out a way to hunt them. I have a friend in up state New York who hunts coyotes with hounds very much the same way we hunt lion in most parts of the west. . He has mentioned that several people in his area have claimed to have sighted lion. He also finds it strange that with all the coyote hunters driving the roads they have never cut a lion track. There is no doubt that lions are moving back into areas that they have not been in a long time, but one has to wonder how many of the sightings are legitament. I have had more than one old time lion hunter tell me that if a dog will run coon they will run a lion, yet none are being treed while coon hunting or at least not many are talking about it if they are treeing some. I am sure that an ocassional lion travels around and gets into these parts, but I would think that more of them would be treed if all these sightings were real. There are a lot coon hunters out there and believe me they would be talking if they walked up to a tree and shined a lion in it instead of a coon. However if they do make a come back in the south and eastern parts of the U.S. they would not be that hard to tree and the houndsmen would figure a way to get it done.

I can see your point, but two things come to mind for me. When I was a kid, still coon hunting with my daddy, we were hunting an old WWII bombing range. The dogs he had then were decent and they were burning up a hot track. About the time they located and treed, we heard the most-god awful blood curdling scream I could ever imagine. I was a button back then, and I nearly peed my pants. I looked at my dad and he looked as confused as I was. Things got deathly quiet and then it screamed again. An old man from north Mississippi was hunting with us and when we asked each other what that sound was, he laughed and said it was a panther. Said he'd heard it several times as a kid. We didn't wait around to find out and all four dogs beat us back to the truck with their tail between their legs. Was it a lion? I don't know, but I figure it was either that or bigfoot.

About ten years ago, a guy from Baton Rouge called me looking for a puppy. He was a research scientist with LSU's Louisiana Black Bear Project. We had many phone conversations and I found out that he was assigned to trapping and tracking the bear in my area. According to him, there were numerous bear in the Florida Parishes that they had collars on and as many that they hadn't caught yet. Sightings pop up about every 10 years or so. But in my 35 years of hunting this area, and at one time I was an every night coonhunter, I've never had my dogs strike anything that I would have suspected was a bear. I have had several hunts where we ran and treed multiple times what what I always thought was a bobcat, but the bobcat hunters tell me that it's not likely that a pack of tree hounds were treeing a bobcat only to have him jump out and tree multiple times all night long. I do know that they definitely were not running a coon. Maybe it was a panther and we just didn't know it?

[Big N' Blue]

Larry, most likely what you heard scream many years ago was a big boar hog. They can make a God-awfull scream when they want too. A lion does not have the vocal cords to scream.

[lmorgan]

Larry, most likely what you heard scream many years ago was a big boar hog. They can make a God-awfull scream when they want too. A lion does not have the vocal cords to scream.

Naw, I'm leaning more toward bigfoot. There's been more bigfoot sightings in this area in the last 30 years than big cats. Where we were hunting was only 30 miles from the home of the legendary Honey Island Swamp Monster. Maybe he got itchy feet?

[Emily]

Larry
I've had my hounds chase a bobcat that bails multiple times up here. Don't know why that wouldn't happen down there.
A hound that strikes a bear sounds different from the same hound on coon. My dogs hunt both, and I have no trouble figuring out what they are on from their voices alone.

[lmorgan]

Larry
I've had my hounds chase a bobcat that bails multiple times up here. Don't know why that wouldn't happen down there.
A hound that strikes a bear sounds different from the same hound on coon. My dogs hunt both, and I have no trouble figuring out what they are on from their voices alone.

I've always been told that when that happens it's a bobcat, but I've had bobcat hunters tell me that tree dogs weren't likely to put enough pressure on a cat to make him tree. I come from a long line of houndsmen and good ol' wet country coon hunters and all my life I've heard that's how a bobcat will do at night, but since I haven't physically seen the bobs, I can only assume that the people on here who hunt them on purpose know more about it than I do. It's reassuring that you've had the same thing happen. At leas I know I'm not completely off my rocker. I've also been told that if you can stick with the track and them bailing out until daylight, they'd most likely stick. Has that happened to you?

[Emily]

I don't often actually see the bobcat when that happens, but do see sign. I'm too old and slow for all night hunts in these mountains, especially at the pace a bobcat moves. I do occasionally coon hunt early in the morning, although I've never treed a bobcat at that time of day.
When the hounds are on a fisher, which happens more often, they bark treed while moving, because fishers jump from tree to tree without resting. I've never seen the hounds hold a fisher treed. The bobcats are slower to move.
I have occasionally dumped the dogs when I saw a bobcat cross the road. Its a foolish thing to do because I know I can't keep up in the places bobcats go, but I know the hounds will tree the bobber for short periods, then move on. They don't bark treed while moving on a bobcat like they do on a fisher. Some of my friends do manage to tree fishers, but you probably don't have fishers down there.

[lmorgan]

I don't often actually see the bobcat when that happens, but do see sign. I'm too old and slow for all night hunts in these mountains, especially at the pace a bobcat moves. I do occasionally coon hunt early in the morning, although I've never treed a bobcat at that time of day.
When the hounds are on a fisher, which happens more often, they bark treed while moving, because fishers jump from tree to tree without resting. I've never seen the hounds hold a fisher treed. The bobcats are slower to move.
I have occasionally dumped the dogs when I saw a bobcat cross the road. Its a foolish thing to do because I know I can't keep up in the places bobcats go, but I know the hounds will tree the bobber for short periods, then move on. They don't bark treed while moving on a bobcat like they do on a fisher. Some of my friends do manage to tree fishers, but you probably don't have fishers down there.

I don't even know what a fisher is. We do have plenty of FISH, though.