Papered or Non Papered Dogs

[kordog]

it gives me a little insight to the right direction to look for info and i appreciate it. one goal as a breeder i have is to breed litters with very little culls . my dogs are deffinately better as a whole these days .makes no difference to me if their papered by a club or not as i will keep documentation myself ,but maybe i could tighten up on the info such as you guys do even knowing what order they are born among other things. its all about the dog for me .catching game with them is a validation of my efforts .i have sold 4 puppys since 1995 so money is deffinately not a motivator . my friends get some and i keep some .

[cat and bear]

Cobalt wrote, If this is about not being able to register crossbred dogs, not only is that a poor arguement, but it isn't true. The hypocracy of the initial post is that when a person says "Walker" or "Trigg", they are refering to a line of once registered (PAPERED!!) dogs and those are what the foundation

I could care less of the papers, speaking of hypocrisy, take another step back and all dogs came off running dogs, correct? Trigg, running walkers, making treeing walkers today?

Paco wrote,Cat and Bear, I do think you can have too much leg and bottom, If you don't have the rest to go with the leg and bottom, all you have is a idiot running around.

Devin, if they didnt have the brains, nose, to go with it, the cross wouldnt have been made, they got it period, may want to keep an open mind. As our friend van said, when i asked him about this subject quote" the worst running dogs, is still better then the best tree dogs" unquote.

Yesterday, the trigg or half triggs led the jump, led the race, and two hours later, the reg. Walker, and plott was standing on the road, there feet is blood and junk for a few weeks, Half triggs, not a speck of blood and ready to run today, that is the difference, in bad conditons. So am i doing the wrong thing by breeding non papered dogs, or am i creating a better hound?That suits me and the game i hunt?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Cat and Bear, I think your on the right track, I too like a running style dog, and don't care how I get it. My half hounds that I run trail an old track but down right leave the trail hounds in the dust. A track drifting running style dog get things done in a hurry. Mine have great feet and never have to be laid up to rest their feet. The trail hounds have their place but everytime i go out I see less opportunity for them to stay in my kennel.

[cobalt]

Caring less might be the problem. Foxdogs are definitely the foundation of treedogs, but many of the traits that were altered to create the treehound were done for a purpose and you can't be prejudice of that purpose, even if there were traits that got diminished. Breeding is a balancing act of traits and because a dog doesn't have all the traits you demand doesn't mean they're junk. No breed is perfect. Perfection is a fluke that we all shoot for, but is an impossible goal. Perfection is an opinion. You are doing what you think is right to help you catch more game. It sounds like you are successful in your methods, so far. Hypocracy isn't such a bad word, it just means to me there is a contratiction in part of what your saying, like Devin is saying there is a contradiction in what you are saying about foot and bottom. The way it was interpreted made it sound like you might be sacrificing other traits for those and that was OK. My point is that those trigg dogs and walker dogs whose blood runs in your good dogs were created painstakingly over many generations of documented breeding for the traits you now find that you can't live without and when passed on to the next houndman, those papers followed so as to be able to maintain the integrity of the BREED. You are taking them with no regard to that history and how those traits came about by not letting that verfied blood flow like it's past, into the future. Your only care is instant gratification of current ability and screw how that ability came about. That is fine. I don't care and I haven't hunted with your dogs to have an opinion of whether I think they are nice or not, but I do know they are not perfect. I know many people with crossed up running/tree dogs. Most are papered, some are not. I think your beef is with the UKC recognized treehound breeds and where many of them are going, and you may be right, but papering and documented pedigree aren't the problem, they are a tool. Over the years of owning papered and grade dogs, and knowing several houndmen, I would say the very worst quality dogs on average, were grade. Idiots breed grade dogs, too, in fact the people who breed dogs with disregard to pedigree are starting out sloppy and the odds of success down the road with a sloppy start is a sad end, but there are exceptions.

[cat and bear]

Cobalt, I respect your opinion, I would like to correct you on starting out with sloppy grade dogs. I started with dogs and lines of very respected hunters, that put a lot of game on the tailgate. Had a good turnout of litters, culled hard, and as stated earlier, over twenty years of watching, hunting, and breeding this line. Most grade, a few papered. Were trying to breed cat, and bear dogs. Show me any registered line, that can do it consistanly,with feet, tree, nose, speed and grit, and i dam sure want some. I've tried three big names from the west, and at best, they are average here, im sure great dogs where they are bred and raised to hunt. Our terrain, and style must require a different dog. I've had one cull in four litters, Call it dumb luck if you wish, i doubt it. nine for nine pups have started on my last cross, by 7.5 months old. Two went south, and I can assure you, they are as hard of bobcat hunters as there is, and they have nothing but good to say, as he is one of the most respected guys on this form. Im humbled by their compliments. Perhaps, I'm old school, but i drug a lot of dogs out of the woods, to get their line, and back here, guys simply dont part, nor share their lines. Whats in their dogs, goes to the grave with them. I sell finished dogs, as I love training. I am letting my stuff out to a select few in the east, but in general, the last litter, i sold two, private treaty two, and kept five. Call it selfish, I got thousand of dollars, trying papered or non papered junk, and whats in these dogs, this guy knows, and will take it to his grave, instead of guys seeing the map, seeing a name, and try to duplicate it, and sell pups for a couple hundred bucks, sorry i just dont work that cheap. As an old timer in the south told me, I've got what you want, and I'll set the rules

[plottpappaw]

i'm going to respectfully disagree with grade dogs being a sloppy start. most of my dogs are not papered but i do have their pedigree's mapped out. i know what dogs and what bloodlines back each dog whether it be my half plott half walker or half black and tan half bluetick dog. whether it be full registered dogs or grade dogs it always falls back to the breeder. i have studied animal husbandry some and some genetics and a very capable very responsible breeder can be given registered dogs and do very well with them because they strive for the possibility of great offspring. i also feel the same breeder could be given grade dogs and produce great offspring. we all strive to be able to make the decisions to created productive offspring. i'm sorry but not every dog is gonna make it no matter how long you have been doing this and not every dog is gonna come out belly to bark. but using responsible breeding ethics it strengthens the ability to have a hugher percentage of success. so basically the dog can or can not have papers but what the owner does with it effects the outcome more. if the owner is an idiot name or buddy breeder then maybe not so good but if its a responsible breeder then maybe its not gonna be all that bad. but i have seen a well thought out litter out of super dogs with great pedigrees backing it just be stupid and culls.

[cobalt]

C and B. I respect that you have good dogs and are probably a good trainer. If you think it is in your best interest to forgo any formal papering of the dogs you hunt because that is the best way to produce better dogs for now and the future, more power to you. If you feel you've tried enough registered dogs from all over and are sure that it isn't worth your while to look any more, that is reasonable. I don't have the opportunity at this point to go and see what you have to deal with so debating geography is a waste of your time and mine. I obviously have papered dogs and will continue to paper them, even if I have to switch registries because of crossbreeding then back to linebreeding, I will do so. I don't think I will because I think there are dogs in my breed that can better it in anyway I feel necessary ie; speed, nose, grit, foot, mouth, personality, etc. etc., but that is my resposibilty and only mine. I know exactly where you're coming from, but from what I have read and experienced, constant outcrossing and out breeding is good for short term success, but long term failure due to the increased diluting of the blood and the lack of control of genetic material there. If you have been linebreeding certain dogs of different breeds over many generations with success, it would seem to me that you would want them to be registered all the more for the betterment of the hound world. Lastly, will the cat hunters down south with your great cat dog breed that dog into their line of dogs?

Oh, sloppy was a poor word to use. Maybe unorganized would have been more appropriate.

[cat and bear]

Cobalt, good points and debate, which i'm doing to much of, but stuck in the house with the flu, LOL. Again, papers mean nothing to me, as my teacher and grandfather told me many years ago, lets leave the dogs at home and take them papers, and see what we catch today He has owned, dogs for near 70 years, is my mentor, and main teacher of hounds and hunting. I will again, say, if somone exposed me to registered line which I require, thats great, always looking, and open minded. Heck, i would outcross to a billy goat, if it fit my style and reproduced respectable dogs I wont run out or dilute these dogs, in my lifetime, the three main lines of mutts bred, i will keep mixing back and fouth. The cat hunter, well they have a different line of dogs which they register, so i doubt they would breed mine for non registered. Im just humbled, that i said try these dogs, and got such a high compliment, which by the way, today he called and said, Ron, you need to breed old willy to his daughter, to keep it pure. I've never hid behind anyone and if these folks step forward thats fine to publish their opinion, but im confident in what im doing without papers. I truely believe, im not locked into papers, faults, good or bad, can eliminate them, and breed a better hound.

[Dads dogboy]

Cobalt,

Ole Ron is set in his ways about the "Paper" thing! However he is like so many good Houndsmen of old...he has their pedigrees filed away somewhere behind his Sinuses and between his ears. This works till he is gone, then like so many Great Lines from the past…the Hounds are gone!

Some folks take this Papered non Papered thing way to serious! As we and Devin said earlier the Papers are like the Road Map or Recipe. Admittedly the Papers will not make a Bear climb or catch the ole Shorttail….but they will allow us to make some more Hounds to do this a bit more expeditiously than not having that recipe to use.

Ron appears to have hit a HOME RUN with his cross on the LINE BRED Trigg bitch and His home grown line bred Male. Ron was kind enough to send a female Pup of this cross to both Glen Rybard and Dad. The thinking is that as strong of a Treedog the Sire is; with the speed, drive and bottom of the Trigg bitch, we might end up with a Treedog that can stand the pace, bad country, and multi Race nights with the Clay Running Walker Hounds. (We have tried several TW…they made great one race per night Cat Hounds where we Hunt…these Hounds now reside in S. Texas and are above average Hounds at their new homes)

We started the Bitch we have @ 7 &1/2 months. She ran the 1st Race we turned her into (1:45 in some bad country with lots of water). She followed the Pack and kept up with the Race most of the time (ain’t the Garmins nice). On her second Race (56 minutes in a drier part of the club) she stayed right in the Race and got a pickup when the Cat squatted and doubled back right into her. At the Catch she was in there fighting the Cat like an old pro.

This pup started better than the two Clay Hound Pups who were a month or two older. After her 5th Race she was definitely contributing, not just participating. Dad sure bragged her up….then her ankles started swelling(7th Race)….and swelling bad (10th Race). Dad said for us to lay her up till she is a year old as she has started so well, and let her legs strengthen up.

Now C&B did some research and found that with the line of Triggs the mom came from, the Pups are not started till after they are past a year old….yet they last way longer than what we hunt Dads hounds(7years old).

Is this a recessive trait exposed? Would papers have kept this from happening…Did her not having papers make her start better than Dads Pups….absolutely not. However the fact that she had parents who were both “Family Line Bred” to some extent allowed for a better chance of aligning the desirable genes to go along with the Highbred Vigor that comes from crossing two very different lines.

C&B had spent lots of time researching the proper line to outcross to for the Game he hunts, in the kind of Country he hunts, and Hounds that would hunt in the Style that he hunts. If you could down load and print the files that he has on these Hounds stored away in his Grey matter, you would have pretty complete Pedigree history of these Hounds.

Now as to this ½ Trigg, ¼ RW, ¼ TW bitch, we hope she makes a strong Treedog, her Pedigree says she should, but there would be NO PLANS to integrate her into our Breeding program. She would be the single Purpose type Hound that a Hunter/Breeder may have to acquire from time to time, till he raises a PLUG of his own breeding for the WHOLE in his Pack. Glen Rybard is hunting 18 Clay Hounds, all litter mates to ours…he has four Clay Hounds that have turned into darn nice Treedogs…so it has been our bad luck to have given away the Tree minded Pups!

A nice thread….good input and good information from good Houndsmen!

C. John Clay
Dads dogboy

[plottpappaw]

i don't think unorganized works either. what was a plott before it had papers still a plott. all breeds are crossed to produce a specific type and then controlled. every single hound history states an outcross of two breeds or three were made to start this breed. documents were kept on them to be able to tell the history. for instance in finding my main 4 dogs i looked for the 4 absolutly top notch kick butt dogs i could find. i based all my decisions on performance only. not color not papers only performance. now with that said i ended up with 2 1/2 walker 1/2 plott, 1 1/2 black and tan 1/2 bluetick and a registered walker. with each one i found out what bloodlines they were and how their parents performed. so maybe i don't have ukc papers but i can breed by my documents and with lineage behind each one. so what makes my breeding diff than others what is so diff bout my documentation besides a seal or fancy border. i believe its basically just personal preferance and the desired road as individuals we travel for what we want.

[twist]

Use and hunt what strain of hound that works for you, paper or grade it all boils down to if they are consistantly working and catching the desired game in a certain area that is all that matters. In the end they are just a HOUND and none are PERFECT:!:

[cobalt]

Dads dogboy, I appreciate you input. It contains honesty and integrity. My guess and I don't mind being wrong is that this hybrid vigor cross will throw heavy towards the dams side and if she turns into a real tree dog, it won't be until she is around 3 yrs old. I would guess maybe 20% of the litter will have tree. Maybe you got lucky and have one. My suspicion is that you recommended C&B cross his female pup back to a member of the sires side to increase the odds of getting a higher percentage of treedogs which I think is an imperative in the country he hunts whether it be bear, but especially bobcat. I have hunted around running dog crosses on the western side of the US and the successful productive dogs were at most 1/8 foxdog and the best were 1/16 (for bobcat) because of the necessity of tree minded dogs.
I think it is great that C&B can keep several generations of breedings in his head. He is a better man than I in that regard. I pour over crosses both linebred and out and can barely keep a few gen. straight. To me, breeding is a science with a bit of luck and a lot of natural and practical intuition. Success is speculative to a degree. Without being able to put the dogs in the arena together in a number of different venues these debates are merely mental excercise, which I think is actually healthy if kept in perspective. I could tell you of the percentages of my pups that make it and the ages that they run cold tracks and tree or fight and the satifaction of people who have my dogs, but I feel the dogs I have are not mine, but rather the product of the work of breeders before me and I have just a few generations of responsibilty for the results and have been blessed with a few dogs that are truely good reproducers. I want to do better, though, and improve the breed I play with.
Plottpappaw- I don't know what to tell you other than what you describe as your breeding practice goes against every rule of good breeding I've ever seen or read, and for the person who delves in that type of practice and is successful, there are a 1000 that have failed as breeders, but if you love it and believe it then go for it.

[cat and bear]

Cobalt, perhaps i can answer your question as I bred the dogs. The trigg line is known to cold trail and have a good percent of tree. Mix that with my line, there should hopefully be some tree dogs, even for bobcat. At this point, i can say this, the two pups dads dog boy took home, was treeing chickens at the top of the fence, and a squirrel in the tree in their running pen. At around 3.5 months old. My limited experience with my five pups,and their first treeing experience, three treed first round by sight. Two locked down, like a treeing walker on the tree. Does that mean they will tree bobcats, perhaps, bear,Im pretty confident. Time will tell, Im not sure the 50% cross will fit me long term,at this point they have turned my head, I will have a better opinion as i finish these five out, in the next two years. The reason He suggested to me, to breed to a daugher, is my stud dog has the right genetics behind him, thats working here and several other area's,and breeding to a daughter, will give me 3/4 of his line and genetics, as age is catching him. The half cross at this point, and outcome of this litter, seems to be showing me, the quarter trigg, in my future sure isnt going to hurt my plan, when i breed him to his half trigg daughter. To me the trigg thing, is just an experiement, as i have stated, i'm settled in to the foundation of dogs, which i will hunt the rest of my life, Im also wise enough to keep an open mind, and always striving to make the better, tougher, balanced hound, respected both for bobcat, and also bear. The criteria needed is a heck of a challenge, but others have accomplished it, and given all of us very high standards and goals of our future hounds.

[Bigfoot]

[cobalt]

As I have said, I have hunted around the running dog crosses and have a huge amount of respect and admiration for them when they are right. If I would have had some many years ago, I might still be running them. As it is, I have what I have and am deticated to the betterment of them, although at this point I'm not hunting enough to really advance my program at anything but a snails pace. I do have dogs that I believe have enough of the high end traits to make people reckon with them. They have run with running dog crosses that are top dogs and have come away with peoples jaws hanging wide open. Do I produce every pup like that, no, but I do like dogs that know where the front is and can get there and will go and go and go to stay there, among other traits like nose, locate and to a lesser degree, grit. Grit is a tough one, because I just don't harvest bear any more and haven't for a long time, so a bear on the ground doesn't get what he deserves and it is reflected in my dogs attitude.
I wish you luck, C&B, in finding the right mix you will be satisfied with. I'm sure you are a private man and can take this on independently, but registering (papering) your dogs is an availability to you if you decide even at this juncture in the line you have. I, as a houndman and student, would at somepoint like to see the recipe and and the process of crosses you have made to end up with what you have. Good luck and hope you're feeling better.