pit bulls

[nmplott]

Bill,
They were in our areas until the T4 ranch hunted them by air. I am only concerned that they will start to migrate back to our area.
Stephen

Ps. I really do not want to loose some dogs to hogs.

[Pops]

Bill not having hunted in NM i will just take your word for it.

[Vance M.]

Like said above if a someone has a dog over a #100 and are calling it a pit then they are blowing smoke. They may be calling it a pit but it is not!

Pops are you calling FB a Turner and Hooch type breeder? ?

[Pops]

Vance
the folks that founded the whopper & dagger lines used bourdeaux bitches under rednosed dogs to found their stock. they went from an average 50-60 # to an average 80-90# in one generation. that is on paper two dogs in the 50-60# range produced an entire litter in the 80-90# range, you have a better chance of winning powerball & megamillions lottery the same night. after they got some publicity the bourdeaux breeders that sold them the bitches suspected of being used in the cross came out & said they sold them the bitches. they also both later inspected the bitches they sold them & publicly stated that the bitches had been bred.
now no DNA work was done to prove it, & the breeders stuck w/ their stories, but there is enough circumstancial evidence to convict.

[Redwood Coonhounds]

Pit Bulls and Am Staffs are the same, just show a different name on the papers. AKC being snooty just didn't like the name "Pit Bull". They changed there name just like AKC put's "American" in fron ot the B&T's name, or they now call Jack Russle's, "Parson Terriers."

My Mom breeds APBT/AST's, they are Reg both AKC/UKC so are in fact, both breeds, but the same dog. Just depends on what show they are at this weekend. The onyl thing you don't see is Rednose lines in AKC, because they didn't want them Reg. There standard says "nose must be black." So some Rednose lines are different. But Blue dogs are just a color coming from too much line/in breeding that made the color/pigment fade. Lots of health problems there and a lot of people getting screwed out of money.

I seen one APBT that was 89# on the scale. Biggest dog I ever saw. It was funny, I walked past so many dogs to hear the owner claim "this dog is 90lbs." When my dog on my leash was the same size. Just say "really 90lbs, I got a Certified Health Certificate in the car that says my dog is 55lbs. They sure look the same size." Sit back and watch the look on thier face. I love it too, most people have some of those dog 20lbs overweight, it cant walk 20ft without sitting down, and they think it's impressive cause it weights 80#s.

I also got a lot of "How much your dog weight? 70lbs?" Nope, 50. They could never believe it.

I gave up on the breed. Most of the owners are too ignorant, and it's not worth fighting anymore when 90% of thier owners are the ones that gave them the bad name to begin with. Sad too cause they are one of the best breeds.

[Vance M.]

Sorry Cassandra but I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. Staffs and pits are not the same breed. They may have came from the same dogs originally but threw many many years of selective breeding have made them into a totally different breed. The average person cant usually tell them apart. One has been bred for performance and the other bred for show. I would say 98% of the dogs people are calling pits today are really not.

Also you will never find a real bulldog (pitbull) in UKC or AKC.
AADR and ADBA is the registry for the real pitbulls.


I two have gotten out of pits around the time my son was born, about two years ago or so. I have spent many hours arguing with people about the disposition and temperament of pits. I am from the old school way of thinking. If one of my pits even thought about acting nasty to a human they would have been sucking dirt. It is a real shame that the street punks and drug dealers got a hold of this great breed and are ruining it for everyone.

Pops
I was told once that Butcher Boy was the last of the big pits. I cant remember who said it right now but it was an old timmer

[Pops]

Vance the biggest i ever heard of was an 81# advertised at stud in the SDJ in the 70s. coincidentally thats about the same time Swinford did his crossbreeding experiment and he rolled his dogs. i worked on a guys yard as a kid, he kept a pair of dobes to keep the bulldogs from being stolen. i feel a good gamebred bulldog is the safest dog around people but it's a myth that there were never manbiters bred. some top country rules dogs were known manbiters and were still heavily bred from. now if you get a line founded by a guy that focused on cajun rules you get infinitely less chance of manbiters.

[nightowl24]

gr.ch.mayday was the biggest and argueably the best of the catchweights(as a dog and as a producer). butcher boy was a fine dog one of the best, funny thing is he threw really small dogs. mayday was a big dog that threw big dogs, also butcher boy had really low percentages, mayday's was threw the roof.

some of the worst manbiters out there are down from bullyson, he was a borderline crazy dog, but one heck of a producer. bullyson, maverick, reno, dogs are some of the best in texas but you have to be an experience dogman to handle them. some are very docile others are bonkers. that line resides in la and tx, canjun rules. to much fire not to breed them...pits are some of the nicest dogs ever, they aren't naturally mean dogs to people. they like the affection to much.

i too used to fight the battle but i gave it up. all i say now is it's the breeding and the way they are raised. one, the other, or both. after that i really don't get into long debates it's useless. people already have their mindds made up that pits are bad, but most of the dogs that are involved in bitings are even pits, they are a cross of some sort. it's a shame, a pure shame..

[Liz ODell]

I have to also agree that UKC 'pits' and UKC/AKC amstaff's ARE the same thing but a UKC 'pit' is NOT the same as an ADBA 'pit' (I have always called them bulldogs myself). I have never seen a fast lane dog that weighed more than 60 lbs and 40 to 50 was the norm for most males, they also rarely had that thick looking build to them. I used to own some Alligator/Honeybunch heavy bloodlines, but I have not owned a bulldog now in probably 10 years (Alligator was considered a big dog for his time). I know the ADBA used to try hard to not register dogs that were UKC registered as that was not the type of dog ADBA wanted to support...not sure what is going on with that now. From what I see anymore the huge thick dogs are popular with the general public, I guess cause they look 'tough', I don't know but anytime you turn on MTV thats all you see those worthless gangsters hauling around on a chain and thats all you see most people hauling around on the street. Personally I like the old 'whipcord and leather' ADBA dogs, pound for pound they are as strong as the thick dogs but they have alot more stamina probably because of the lean muscle mass (slow twitch muscle) as compared to the heavy (fast twitch muscle). Kinda like the difference between an arab horse and a quarter horse. I would think that a mid sized (by midsized for catch dogs I'm thinking 70 lbs) lankier dog would work better and longer than a 'tank' for catching...at least if you wanted to make more than one catch a day. Sure they don't have the weight but they won't go down from exhaustion or heat stroke as quick...in the last 4 or 5 years I don't think I have seen an advertisement for a 'pit bull' that did not say something like 'huge heads' 'females 80 lbs'! I guess it just boils down to what you personally want to pay to feed but I sure hope that the old style fast lane dog does not disapear from the face of the earth .

[nightowl24]

the fast lane dog still resides...you just have to know where to get them. i say it depends on what you are looking for in a dog. the long lean dogs(nigerino type) pack a heck of punch and they go all night long. those barnstormers(bullyson, gr.ch.banjo)pack even more punch they are just done real quick. i would think a redboy/jeep/rascal dog would be a great hog dog. above avg bite, deep deep game, strong, with smarts. they would be my ideal dog for hog doggin...i too see the over sized dogs and absolutely hate them. they make me sick. next thing is usually that over grown dog is barking at everything that moves. just looks horrible..hate it, hate it hate it....

[hemihound0713]

If i would say, they are all related, but there is a big difference in what is what, most of your UKC dogs now a days are mixed with bulldogs, you can see it in them, The ones that i think look like the original pit bull are ADBA dogs. Here is a picture of my dog "Baby" and she in my opinion looks like an original pitty.

[three rivers catahoulas]

Any thing bigger then 65lbs isn't a pit. I use AB's and my male is 115lbs and he's a monster. I have only seen one bull breed dog that was even close to a buck forty and he was a johnson type bulldog and he was only 135lbs and like longshot said useless any heat would have killed him. I have seen mastiff type dogs that big, but generaly speaking they dont make good catch dogs because they dont have the pray drive. The only big dogs like that I have seen, that do have the pray drive are the Ban Dogs. The Dogo's shouldn't be that big either, the breed standard is 110lbs and thats a big one. Pits are great dogs, dont get me wrong, but from what I've seen, it takes 2-3 pits to do what a good American Bulldog will do by himself. And I know all you guys that hunt pit's are gonna jump all over me for saying that, but I've caught alot of hogs with the Bulldogs that I've had and have and I have had a few good pits too. But the fact of the matter is, There is no replacement for displacement. And from what I have seen the AB's can out run and out last the pits and AmStaff's all day long. The only bully type dog I have seen that could keep up with the AB's as far as stamina goes are the Dogos. And that expereance is in the mountains of N.California from 0-6000 feet elevation and canyons it takes all day to get to the bottom of.

[killemallboy]

i agree with chuck a little but the line of pit bulls i have are fast and when i mean fast 30-33 mph and if you dont beleave me i will prove it i have personaly clocked it now yes it does take a couple dogs do the job but where i hunt and boarrunner can clearify for me those hogs are the size of a small rihno,and if you do your research a pitbull came from 2 types of dogs 1 was a blue neo mastiff and the other a colby line pitbull or other wise know as a american staffshire terriers back in the early 1900 the akc/ukc could only pick one or the other now also i breed the most high strung line of pit there weights are usually 85 for females 85-110 for males and i got the proff and if you say they are not clean lines you are wrong it is called seletive breeding so in the end it is all on personel preference that is all i have to say thanks now before any one dogs on pits you need to have the knowledge to the areguement and i am not try to offend any one but those are the real facts and if you want some books i can give you some names of some good ones thanks

[Pops]

killemallboy
you say some silly $#!+ but your version of bit bull history has got to be the most nonsensical crap ever.
QUICK version
the American Pit Bull Terrier (and by default the Amstaff) is a blending of all the local bull & terriers developed in the british isles (that means all of britain, ireland & the little islands around it). the various immigrants from all over britain brought the game dogs from their area and bred between them here in the USA. Most of these types are now extinct with only the Staffy Bull, the irish staffybull & the English bull terrier still around (although the blue paul lingered until going extinct in the 1930s). each locality used the same TYPES of dogs to produce SIMILAR TYPES of dogs. all areas crossed WORKING bulldogs (essentially identical to performance american bulldogs) to working terriers (mostly smaller types like fell, lakelands, & borders but also bigger ones like black & tans(manchesters?), white english, red & blue irish terriers. both types of dogs produced larger numbers of dead game dogs but were crossed to produce a superior product for the dog pits (which also proved outstanding in badger & rat pits). the terriers boosted dog aggression, speed & agility while the bulls provide an overall hard constitution, a thick hide and strong bone. the resulting dog were GENERALLY midway in size between the parent types although there was SOME overlap on the top & bottom ends. the terriers used normally ranged from 15-40# and the bulldogs NORMALLY from 60-90# (bulldogs larger than 100# generally had some mastiff in the background which certainly didn't improve agility in the small confines of a dog pit).
however as with any working breeding what worked was more important than it's background so there are records of retrievers, and other crossbreds w/bulldogs (like bulldog/greyhound) being successful in the box and therefore added to the breeding.
FAST FORWARD
in the late 80s and early 90s several kennels & lines pop up that go from 45-60# to 80-120# in a single generation, that is 45-60 parent produce entire (& successive) litters where EVERY pup is over 80#and average 90-110#. it doesn't take a genetice degree to know that however theoretically possible this is the real world doesn't work that way. interestingly enough the dogs don't have the proper confirmation of either a pit bull terrier or a pure bulldog but they do have identical confirmation. but they do have identical confirmations to john swineford's bantu (engish mastiff under catchweight pit) and joe luceros bandogs (neo mastiff under catchweight pit). most kennels that produced the one generation leap are shown to have possessed some sort of mastiff bitch like the neo, bourdeaux, bull mastiff or english mastiff at the time they are producing their first generations of huge pits.
as for your dogs if they are too heavy even for the specialty weight pull lines from the ADBA. they are mixes w/ papers hung on them ( i don't really care since i don't have any desire to buy any from you). additionally if you are just estimating weight w/o actually putting them on a good scale you are probably way off (very common w/ the giant pit bull crowd). for reference here is a picture: the red dog was 23" 76#, the black dog 29" & 66#, I am 5'10" 190# and my friends white dog is 26" 112#
http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd311/Pops762/

[nightowl24]

pure bred pits don't get 100#'s, fact not fiction....dagger lines, they added bourdeaux blood...razor's edge added neo mastiff to get the blue color..the two biggest documented game bred pits were gr.ch.mayday and ch.alligator..also fastlane bulldogs doesn't apply to the speed of the dogs... if you don't know what a fastlane bulldog is then you really dont' know the history of the breed..