Illegal outfitting

[Ranger]

Never had any problems and I hunt the front range a lot. The only time we hear anything is usually from the outfitters that can't seem to book enough clients of thier own, so they blame it on illegal outfitting.

I totally agree with FullCryHounds. I hear of other outfitters complaining about this all the time and it seems to me its for this reason or that they arent catching any and instead of working harder and getting up earlier they -beep- and moan about what everyone else is doing. Makes me laugh my azz off cause while there complaining Im out actually hunting every day of the season. In 14 years I never have run into someone that I suspected of illegal outfitting for lion. Have seen it on elk though.

The way I see it is if they have the guts to go out there and try to to do it with out the licence and permits go for it! I really dont give a crap what someone else is doing and really dont think all this red tape is right to take hunters legally. I think anyone that wants to try and make a living doing this should have a shot at it. It aint easy. I just couldnt sleep at night if I didnt have all my paper work and permits in order but Im sure there are guys out there that wouldnt worry.

[Sackett]

[/quote]Was talking to a guy from the BLM just the other day and was told that (in the past few years) out of the 18 outfitters licensed for the Book Cliffs only a few (2 or 3) report any use. And that the reported amounts were very minimal. This was not just for lions but for all usage including deer and elk. He said that the same outfitters that reported "no use" for the year would have photos hanging on their walls showing successful hunts for that year. Kind of hard for me to feel sorry for them around here...[/quote]

Right on the Money! But lions have a larger problem than illegal guiding in the Basin because of access and the "Hero of the Day" attitude. The oil & gas development is bringing new roads into winter deer and elk habitat, and those roads bring water haulers, pumpers, service people, drilling hands and other people into new country. They all have buddies with hounds or know somebody with hounds and carry cell phones, first fresh snow and lion track that comes along the cell phones start ringing. How will we retain or expand a lion population as the development leads into winter range.

[Orion Guide]

so if i go lion hunting have a tag of my own and i own all the dogs and hunting equipment. but take another person that has there own tag but no dogs or equipment and they harvest a cat. would that be illegal outfitting even if there is no charge? if so i guess it would be ok if the harvesting person owned just one dog. just interested i cant even find my own cat.

i take whoever has a tag and goes with me, some fellars just can't afford 4000 bucks to lion hunt. Never take strangers but take friends and family!! Maybe someday i'll be good enough to charge people, until then friends and family are my guinee pigs!!

[dogman68]

In arizona a federal outfitter's permit is required to guide on public lands, along with the state issued guide's license. Being 0n a permit does not allow you to outfit or guide on your own; it allows you to work for the outfitter that owns the permit. All monies are required to go through the permit holder. Thats my understanding of it. No permit is required if the definition of "guiding" is not met. In fact, until just recently, you could hold a lion in a tree for a "friend" to come shoot. I think Rule 12-4-208 I is an amendment to that however. It states that Anyone who harvests wildlife must be in the field And present at all times. I would imagine that "present" is an arbitrary word. If your "buddy" is in camp, even though he is in the field, he is not present. If your "buddy" is on the hill above you, he is probably present.
By virtue of holding a guide's license you are almost assumed to be guiding, regardless of your story. Wildlife managers have stressed to me over and over to treat clients as clients and friends as friends. If your friend was once a client, treat him as a client. Most wildlife managers already know the score anyway. Just what I have been told and experienced.

[raxntrax]

I have a friend that used to hunt lions years ago. He was good friends with a fish and game biologist. They hunted several weekends and did a couple of week long trips with the biologist buying all of the fuel and most of the food. These trips were for the biologist to harvest a lion for his living room, not for research. All of the wardens knew about it. Nothing was ever said about illeagal outfitting. Yet the same wardens will hang the next person they see take 20 bucks for gas when two friends go hunting for the day. CASH is KING, hard to trace and without signed contracts between guide and client illeagal outfitting is hard to prove. It is sad that there is illeagal outfitting taking place and it goes on for years yet two friends go hunting for a weekend and get raked through the coals. It is a world of double standards. One thing that I have found to be a standard in every state that I have hunted in is that, if you have a dog box on your truck, you have commited some type of game violation. It is just that the wardens aren't sure what that is yet, so they just start with illeagal outfitting. There is a guy here that has been packing 20 plus friends and family members a year into the wilderness for deer hunts for over 15 years. This is a limited draw state. You may get 1 deer tag every 3-4 years. The forest service finally wrote him a littering ticket for not packing his camp off of the mtn. Fish and game cant seem to catch him illeagally guiding. So he either has a REAL big family or A LOT more friends than most

[LCK]

Trouble with illegal outfitters? Not if you mean having high school kids turn loose on every track they find, then call and report what is treed, then have them sit under a tree while they pick up there client at the motel or airport, heavens no, not here .

[Sackett]

If you know outfitters who are doing the Canned Hunt thing then why not turn them in and get them the hell out of the sport

[Orion Guide]

Gotta prove it first

[Bearkiller]

Right on the Money! But lions have a larger problem than illegal guiding in the Basin because of access and the "Hero of the Day" attitude. The oil & gas development is bringing new roads into winter deer and elk habitat, and those roads bring water haulers, pumpers, service people, drilling hands and other people into new country. They all have buddies with hounds or know somebody with hounds and carry cell phones, first fresh snow and lion track that comes along the cell phones start ringing. How will we retain or expand a lion population as the development leads into winter range.

Bullshit! There aren't many people driving slow enough to even think about cutting tracks. On any given morning, even during the week, after a fresh snow, there are several hound hunters out there cutting roads long before daylight.

[Sackett]

Right on the Money! But lions have a larger problem than illegal guiding in the Basin because of access and the "Hero of the Day" attitude. The oil & gas development is bringing new roads into winter deer and elk habitat, and those roads bring water haulers, pumpers, service people, drilling hands and other people into new country. They all have buddies with hounds or know somebody with hounds and carry cell phones, first fresh snow and lion track that comes along the cell phones start ringing. How will we retain or expand a lion population as the development leads into winter range.

Bullshit! There aren't many people driving slow enough to even think about cutting tracks. On any given morning, even during the week, after a fresh snow, there are several hound hunters out there cutting roads long before daylight.

So what units are you hunting Bearkiller and I'll make sure I stay away from those, as it sounds like there aren't any lions and it might not be a safe drive.

[mofo21]

from my understanding its not considered guiding if all expenses are split equally amongst all members in the party so if beer food gas ect cost 300$ and everyone (3 people) pays 100$ it is ok. could be different in different states and for hound hunting but this is the way it is for jetboating hells canyon in idaho. guys were getting in trouble for giving rafters a ride up stream and the rafters givin a little gas money in exchange for a ride. i dont really see how it could be if its split equally but givin you gas money in exchange for getting a ride i see how they could stick it to ya. anyways just my .02

[Bearkiller]

Well sackett, since you specifically mention the basin and oil fields, I assumed you were refering to the book cliffs and/or nine mile. Either way, I've worked in both areas plenty to know that people who are working are driving way to fast to cut tracks, as a rule. And yeah, it can be dangerous.

[killroy]

I don't believe that a family member or a friend buying a tank fulll of gas or a bag of dog food is what we are talking about here. There are too many houndsmen charging hundreds of dollars for a hunt when they are not permitted on the BLM or Forest Service. To be permitted to hunt the BLM or Forest Service you have to have insurance that is quite expensive, apply for the permits which is quite time consuming, and you have to pay a three percent fee on everything you make every year. Some of us guides or outfitters take pride in being legal.

When utah passed the law that you had to be licensed to be a guide we thought it would help the BLM and Forest Service regulate who was permitted and who wasn't. But it hasn't changed anything the DWR, Forest Service and BLM still don't work together. Two weeks ago I was guiding a lion hunt on the Paunsaugunt, we were pulled over by a game warden. After he checked my hunters tag I asked him if he needed to see my Utah Guides License, he told me he would like to see it because he didn't know what one looked like.

It seems that a "Guides License" is just another way for Utah to make money... but does nothing to help with illegal outfitting.

[houndnem]

You are dead right killroy. I had a very in depth conversation with a dwr guy about this. I have been on both sides of this as you well know, but I have gone through the hoops to get legal and I thought that this law would change things too. d.o.p.l. who is in charge of the new utah guide lic, is unwilling to share any money with dwr to inforce this for them. The wardens are not required to check this and they won't. the only way for some body to get caught is if you personally turn them in to dopl and even then, dopl has to prove that they got paid. just like you said another way for them to make money.

[M Evertsen]

This is an interesting subject. For the heck of it, I looked up Nevada's laws, and it specifically defines what compensation is for guiding. I did not copy the whole NRS, but basically its ok for me and a friend to go hunting for lions, and he splits the cost of gas and food with me.

NRS 504.390 Licensing; records; regulations. [Effective on the date of the repeal of the federal law requiring each state to establish procedures for withholding, suspending and restricting the professional, occupational and recreational licenses for child support arrearages and for noncompliance with certain processes relating to paternity or child support proceedings.]

1. As used in this section, unless the context otherwise requires:

(a) “Compensation” means any remuneration given in exchange for providing guide service which is predicated on a business relationship between the parties. The term does not include any reimbursement for shared trip expenses, including, without limitation, expenses for gasoline, food or any other expenses that are generally associated with persons who are engaging in recreational hunting or fishing together.

I am curious to know what the other states' laws are in regards to this.